70. The Gift of Grief: The Nuanced Journey of Experiencing Loss as a Human Being with Erin Ryan.

In this episode, Rebecca sits down with one of her besties, Erin Ryan, to explore the complex and nuanced topic of grief. Both Erin and Rebecca have experienced deep initiations into grief with the loss of a parent (at very different stages of life). The conversation emphasizes that grief is a natural human experience that can bring both challenges and gifts, ultimately deepening our capacity for love and connection. They reflect on their relationship to grief and the gifts it's offered them, such as deeper connections with others, existential understandings of life and mortality, and the importance of cherishing the present moment. The discussion also touches on collective grief, highlighting how shared suffering can unite communities and the challenges of navigating grief in a world filled with constant information about global tragedies. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the beauty that can emerge from grief and the gift it can offer to our tragically beautiful human lives. 

Key Moments

• Our bodies experience grief even when we lack the words to express it.
• Deep grief signifies deep love and connection to what we've lost.
• It's okay to feel multiple emotions at once, including joy and sadness.
• Community and support are essential in navigating grief.
• Grief is both challenging and rewarding, shaping our human experience.
• Grief teaches us the temporary nature of life and the importance of presence.
• Cherishing the present moment is a vital lesson from grief.
• Existential questions about life and purpose often arise from grief.
• Endings and loss are universal experiences that affect everyone.
• Grief can deepen connections with friends and family.
• The nuances of collective grief during moments of global emotional stress.
• It's important to balance being informed about global issues with self-care.
• The beauty of life can be more appreciated through the lens of grief.

Brand Affiliates

Dr. Sari's Lunar Sync 

VIDA20 for 20% off your entire order

Wildling

VIDA10 for 10% off your entire order

Connect with Erin:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theintimacyartist/

Website: https://www.the-intimacyartist.com/

Follow Vida!

https://www.instagram.com/vidathepodcast

https://www.tiktok.com/@listentovida

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Grief and Personal Experiences
• 4:00 Understanding Grief: A Nuanced Perspective
• 8:03 Early Memories of Grief
• 12:04 The Complexity of Grief
• 15:56 The Duality of Grief and Joy
• 20:01 Navigating Grief in Adulthood
• 23:56 The Gifts of Grief
• 28:07 Community and Support in Grief
• 28:07 The Gifts of Grief: Lessons Learned
• 31:31 Existential Reflections: Life's Impermanence
• 33:33 The Death Card: Embracing Endings and New Beginnings
• 35:59 Deepening Connections: Grief's Role in Relationships
• 40:04 Collective Grief: Shared Suffering in a Troubled World

Transcript

Rebecca Espinoza (00:00.795)
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of VIVA. Today I have one of my best friends, Erin, on here. And she's been on the podcast before and you've been on here as more of like from a lens of like practitioner and coach. obviously that is a part of who you are. So that part of you is here, but I think also it's just two friends having a conversation about...

this life topic that is a big one and I think is obviously everyone experiences grief when you're alive as a human being, but it's not talked about enough. I don't think so. I haven't seen it talked about enough. Just I think more on a personal level, but also like on a bigger level. And I think if you are in the personal development world, yes, you do see it talked about a little bit more, but I just still don't think it's as normalized.

When I had the idea to bring you on to talk about this, it just made sense because we did the that event together. Was it two years ago? I think two years ago. Yeah, it was the gift of grief. And we can talk a little bit about what that what that event was. And then I've been, of course, navigating my journey and my season with a really deep grief.

Erin (01:07.296)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And two years ago now. That's crazy. Time is crazy. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:25.307)
And I know you are familiar with grief in your own way. And I think I also really loved the idea of bringing you on here because you're someone that I just feel this deep kinship with and relatability with because you're such a big feeler and you have such a big heart and you allow yourself to be seen in your emotions by the people who love and support you. And you've been a big support in my life and in my corner as I've been going through this.

Season of Grief and it's a very familiar one for you as well and we can talk about that when we get into it. So yeah, welcome back.

Erin (01:54.126)
Thanks, Bex. It's good to be back. And thanks for saying that. I'm like, I love you.

Rebecca Espinoza (02:08.099)
I love you. And yeah, before we dive deep into that episode, we are going to start off with our usual, which she and I do here, just checking in with the heart and asking, como esta tu corazon? How is your heart today?

Erin (02:21.484)
you

My heart feels really alive today. I have been going through my own little season of self things and so I've been, my body has been really stressed out, but I actually, the last few days, my heart has felt expanded, alive. I feel more in my body. I feel more myself because I'm taking care of these things. And so right now,

Yeah, I feel really alive. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (02:56.217)
Yeah, yay, I love hearing that. And I just responded to your voice note today, the one from you left me yesterday. don't know if you heard it, but I was like, I had said I was like your voice you just because I obviously heard you the few last week send me voice notes you can you can tell a lot about a person's state of where they're out based on like their voice and like how they're feeling and how they deliver a message and

Erin (03:06.549)
can't it.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:21.915)
your voice sound, I said in the voice, I was like, you sound so alive today and just like so I think it's so cheeky. was like, you just sound so cheeky and just like your energy. I could feel it was so vibrant and it was so different from like the previous weeks. I love, mean, that's it's cool being able to see those waves of transitions with the people in your life. You're like, this is where they're at right now.

Erin (03:28.974)
yeah.

Erin (03:45.56)
Totally. my gosh, I love that you said that because I really do think different seasons ignite different, obviously, energies and how we show up and our voice is so affected by that. I noticed that for myself. So I love that. Yeah, I know.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:57.851)
Hmm.

That's so funny. Well, thank you for sharing your heart today and then we're gonna get into more heart centered Disconversation and let's get into a little bit about grief. I mean It's such a nuanced Topic and you know, I think it can be put into a nice

Erin (04:12.162)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:20.119)
little neat boxes and you know a science and psychological perspective like the five stages of grief and this is how you go through them and blah blah blah but obviously it's not linear and grief can sometimes last for years but you're going through the different stages and seasons and then you're maybe doing a loop like coming back you were in acceptance when i were again back in anger and sadness three years later so it's very nuanced and you know as i mentioned i think we all experience grief as human beings here in this

Erin (04:26.904)
All right.

Erin (04:39.126)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:49.047)
on this planet. I'm just curious, let's share a little bit about, I was trying to think about this as well and I had a really hard time pinpointing and I don't even know if I still can pinpoint, but our earliest experiences with grief and the first real memory of that and yeah, when you could feel the different layers of it or just like the grief in general.

Erin (05:00.494)
Yeah, love this question and I feel very, there's a very specific moment that I remember. And I was very young. I was seven years old. My mom had just passed away. And at seven years old, my brain was not developed enough to understand what

death was. However, I knew that it meant my mom wasn't going to be around anymore. And so I remember we were at her funeral and it was like my whole family was around and we were sitting there and we were just having the service. And I remember having this feeling in my body and it's so palpable. Like even to this day, I can feel it in my body where I had this choking sensation or almost like I needed to cry.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:34.373)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (05:59.48)
But that's another conversation too, is I felt like I needed to cry, but I didn't allow myself to at the moment. And it was almost like a burning in my throat and like a pit in my belly. And I was like, what? And I didn't have words for what these sensations were or what this feeling was. However, I knew that it just felt like I didn't wanna feel it anymore.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:04.951)
you don't let yourself.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:28.187)
Yeah.

Erin (06:28.204)
And that was my first experience of grief. Like as obviously I've grown up and experienced life and learned what grief was and what that can do to a person or what that feeling is, that is like the exact moment that it was, it kind of landed. And I had a similar experience right when my mom passed away, when I was, we were like in the hospital and

Rebecca Espinoza (06:37.199)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:47.76)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:54.715)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (06:55.178)
we were rushing to the hospital. I remember the day perfectly clear. We were rushing to the hospital. We got to the hospital. The door was closed to her room and it had a do not disturb sign. Someone wrote on a piece of paper and stuck it to the door. Immediately when my dad, my sister and I walked out of the elevator and saw that, my sister and I just broke down and the nurses came because we were all friends with them at the time because my mom

Rebecca Espinoza (07:09.435)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:23.429)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (07:23.864)
and sick for a while. And so we knew everyone. And that moment too was a really, it was a new sensation and a new feeling for me at the time. And that I also link to this sort of utter grief. And even when like a child goes through something like this and you don't have words to sort of articulate what that feeling is.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:40.271)
Yeah.

Erin (07:52.544)
It's such a human thing, even if you're young, to experience grief or devastation in that way, where it is a very extreme loss. So those are two of like the deepest memories, I think, like the very first memories of grief. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:54.447)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:03.259)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:07.471)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:13.477)
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I know you've had a big journey, initiation, I guess, into the experience of grief at a very young age that other people sometimes do as well. And some don't, some don't even know what loss is until they're in their like 40s, maybe even like a big loss or 50s. And yeah, I think it's a very nuanced experience as a child in that way. Cause like you said, and what I really liked about your share was the way you described

described it physically because in that moment that's for grief. I've come to see it as such a visceral physical experience. Like it's uncontrollable sometimes like I'm just like uncontrollably like crying and shaking. Like my body is just like shaking because I'm crying so much and I can't even stop it. And that's the human part of it. And that's that extremely big emotion that comes with it. And I think

Erin (08:59.364)
Right. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:12.571)
Anger is like another one that's like on the other end of it where it's that same thing where sometimes if there's huge amounts of anger, it just like takes over you. And I see grief as this like experience like that. And yeah, it's just it really stands out in that way. So I'd like that you describe that that's how you remembered it because that's what it is. It's our bodies, our human self deeply feeling that even when a child doesn't know what's going on.

Erin (09:22.679)
Right. Right. Exactly. It's like our body experiences things.

I think especially grief or anger, these emotions that can be really intense. I feel like our body experiences it, even if we don't have the words, our body's experiencing it and that's almost the memory of it. And that's why I can still feel it in my body now.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:59.629)
It does. Yeah, it gets imprinted in you because the body, you know, keeps the score. It's like the memories lives in our body. So it's so big. yeah, I think my experience with grief, mean, my first real, I would say, I guess my first real experience I can think of, it wasn't even with it was, I think, with a pet of mine, it was a cat. And I think

Erin (10:09.123)
Yeah.

really is.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:25.851)
Like, mind you, I've had like so many cats. I think I've told you this, like I have so many pets and like that was just like my mom bringing home pets and they've all like had passed away like so early on. Like it wasn't like from old age. It was because they would get let outside. My mom would let them out. They would cross the street. They would get hit by a car. They would get like attacked and eaten by a dog, like all these things. I was just like, so they were just like dying on us. And I think I just became kind of numb to that, that I didn't like.

really process any of it. And I'm a big animal person. So I love them so much. The moment where one of them I think it was like the last straw for me where it finally just like clicked was I was I think I was like 11. And one of my cats had died and it's so crazy. My intuition just like kicked in. I was at soccer practice and my dad was coaching me at the coaching our team at the time.

And I see him walk away from the fields and he's like on the phone and he just like looks kind of he's just like it looked like a serious conversation. And I heard him say something about like, no park, you just park your car on the other side. And we get home and we we park our car usually where we it's on a different side of the street. We're not parked where we usually park. And I thought that was kind of strange. And I already felt intuitively something was off. And then I walk into the house.

My brother is like pacing back and forth in the hallway. And like before I walk into the house, I actually see the tail of the cat, like on the other side of the street where we usually park. It got hit like right or either someone moved to the cat, like right where we usually park our cars. So my brother couldn't park there. So he called my dad and he told him like, I think, you know, the cat died. And I remember I just was like in the hallway, I saw my brother and he just looked at me and I was like,

Erin (12:04.618)
So.

Rebecca Espinoza (12:22.619)
I know, I know he's dead. And I just like started crying. I like broke down crying. And the whole day leading up to getting home, I just felt like, yeah, like I felt tight. Like there was like a heaviness in my body. I was like, something's wrong. Like something is not okay. And I had a feeling it was about one of our cats. And then the moment I got home and I saw all of that, I just like broke down crying. And I just, that was like the first moment I like felt the grief. Cause I don't remember like slowly crying about.

Erin (12:41.491)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (12:52.439)
any of our other pets. So I think it was like compounded as well. But that's like the first memory that I have. And if I'm going to be honest, like leading up to just where I am today, I haven't had a grief in the traditional way sense of what grief would be, which would be like a death, you know, a big loss in that way, when I think of grief. And I think when a lot of people think of grief, my grandmother died. And even then, I think I was I was 12. I didn't feel it very big.

Erin (13:10.908)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:20.549)
for some reason, I just didn't. And it wasn't until my father recently died where I got that huge surge and initiation into grief. I'm like, this is grief. This is like no other. And I think that's just like, you know, again, speaking on more of like the traditional sense of grief with like losing, physically losing someone to death in that way. Yeah.

Erin (13:40.102)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (13:46.08)
Right. Yeah. I think, for sharing that. And I also feel you on just your kitty passing away and like that being a really like first intro into this, this feeling that is maybe like unfamiliar, but, you can feel it. It's seriously the body, body's experience, especially with grief, grief, what I find is like, it's seriously such a body experience.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:56.965)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:04.891)
Yeah, it's so amazing. It's so amazing.

Erin (14:14.198)
I'd also love to mention, I feel like grief as well. As I experienced that as a young girl, grief is this one thing, like all other emotions. Grief, I don't believe it ever goes away. I believe it stays with us and we have different flavors of it. Because when my mom passed away, that was over 20 years ago now.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:33.412)
It doesn't.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:37.84)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (14:43.988)
Every year has been really different on the anniversary of her death. And as I've gotten older, every anniversary, I tend to get more overwhelmed with grief, in a sense that it's just me needing to be with those feelings and emotions. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, it does sneak up on us and it changes as we get older and we have different seasons.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:02.48)
Yeah.

Erin (15:13.622)
of it as well. So I think that's also just so important because, yeah, I think sometimes we can want to reject these like heavier emotions or not want to experience them or hope that it just goes away. But it's the beautiful part of being human is that it's with us and it's okay that it's with us and we get to move through it.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:16.442)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:32.891)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I guess it's asking that big question, would you ever wanted to go away? And I think like in the moment, I'm like, absolutely fucking yes, like to get it out. don't want to experience this. But I will say, you know, it for like it, it is different. It as

Erin (15:46.472)
Thank

Rebecca Espinoza (15:56.187)
you know, you from time and space, right, as you move down further away from that specific moment, that moment where it all happened and the, you know, the death and like the grieving process that when you were in the thick of it, yeah, as you get further away from it, does evolve and change about how you experience grief. And yeah, like everyone that's, you know, when I've been people that I've known that have lost parents and, you know, people in their lives in this way, they've told me like, you know, my cousin, he who

Erin (15:59.502)
you

Rebecca Espinoza (16:24.847)
Yeah, my cousin, he was on the phone with me who had also lost his mom, my dad's sister. He said, you like, you know, I just, don't want to say it's going to stop, but like it does get easier in some ways, but like it doesn't really just stop. And that's something someone else told me as well with their parent. And I think there's so much truth in that because it does sneak up in weird ways. And yeah, like last time I was like looking through some drawers and I saw this little like trinket of my dad.

that he likes to collect little things. And I literally burst into tears and I was like, okay, I wasn't expecting that. And yeah, it's so nuanced and it does make us human. I don't think, like if you just wanna get rid of grief, which is our ability to deeply feel, I think that's just like what it is. You wanna get rid of your part of being human. And I think this just brings us really good, great intersection into this topic of like,

Erin (17:01.73)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:24.345)
Like we mentioned, not a lot of people talk about grief. It can be considered kind of taboo and maybe we just want everyone to think that we are like, we're navigating everything perfectly and that we're okay and we don't want people to see us struggling, whatever it may be. You know, it's different in every culture as well. But despite all of this, like, I think it's safe to say like you and I and like the people in our friend group and everything's like that.

We have definitely deepened into the experience of grief and processing grief and like what has that been for you? Like allowing yourself to deepen into that.

Erin (17:53.454)
my goodness. It's like, it's like such a roller coaster to deepen into it, you know, like there's so much resistance. That's like, you know, I think, I think humans in general have an aversion to discomfort. You know, if something feels uncomfortable, something feels edgy, or if we're around

Rebecca Espinoza (18:17.014)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (18:23.264)
crying and it makes us feel uncomfortable. It's we want to get away from that. It's a natural thing to want to get away from it. However, to recognize that every single feeling and emotion that you're experiencing is a natural human thing and to be able to be in that seat of like, this is actually a normal experience and a normal reaction. Can I be curious about this? Can I sit here and just be like, okay,

This is so uncomfortable. However, I'm okay. I'm still here. Can I just be with the sensations? Can I be with the fear? Can I be with the resistance? And with that, we stretch our capacity to hold and be deeply intimate with ourselves. And when we're deeply intimate with ourselves, I believe that's how we can be deeply intimate with others around holding grief.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:11.311)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (19:20.246)
You know, like if I can hold it myself, I'll feel probably really comfortable to hold you while you're moving through those pieces too. So my journey with it, I think because I had such an early experience of it that I had my own trials and tribulations of not really processing it when it happened because how can a seven year old process it? You're just kind of living your day to day life.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:25.765)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:33.616)
Yeah.

Erin (19:46.446)
going to school, doing the things, playing sports, whatever it is. And then as adulthood comes in, it seeps out in different ways. know, like I remember I used to feel so jealous and uncomfortable when I'd see my friends with their moms. I would just feel so icky where I'd be like, I just want to go home. I don't want to be at their house anymore or just different things like that. And so because of that, I'm coming into adulthood and recognizing like, wow, I never really processed.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:01.359)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:06.671)
Yeah.

Erin (20:15.948)
this really intense traumatic experience that I had. So then having to process that, going through the grief in my own personal ways, dealing with feeling alone, not belonging, missing out, coping in the ways that I thought were like okay at the time and helpful, but they weren't. But it's okay, I was a teenager, college, that's fine. And then...

Rebecca Espinoza (20:36.315)
helpful. Yeah.

Erin (20:43.666)
As I really came to terms with, know what, how did this experience and this grief shape me into who I am and how can I hold it and love it and keep it so close to me? Like this is such a precious experience and still hold feeling like, I really missed out and I'm so sad about that and I am heartbroken by that. And at the same time, this was such a gift because if there's deep

Rebecca Espinoza (20:53.221)
Hmm.

Erin (21:11.886)
grief, that means there was deep fucking love. That might sound super cheesy, but it's so real. Yeah, it's so fucking real. And cliches are things for a reason because it's really when you lose someone or lose a pet or lose something that is so dear to your heart, that means there's such deep care and love and humanity in that. And we get to use that.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:16.195)
It's so cliche, but it's real.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:35.931)
Hmm.

Erin (21:41.198)
to create the life that we want and be like, okay, cool, this happened. And I'm so grateful for what I've learned along the way. And I'm still gonna hold the pain and the discomfort when it comes up. it's, really think maturing as a human being is our ability to hold complexity, know, hold the complexity of our emotions of feeling anger, rage, and I think grief too. It's like, we can feel like,

Rebecca Espinoza (21:54.117)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:01.551)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (22:09.998)
we're sad about something and we're grieving something and then the next minute you're laughing with your friend and you're kind of like, wait, am I grieving? It's like, yeah, that's the complexity of grief. Like it isn't this stand still, which it can be for some people experiencing grief where it is a stand still and it's like, I don't know. Right.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:10.073)
Everything, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:14.939)
Hmm.

Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:27.845)
or for like a certain period of time only, but like eventually, hopefully you're not in that stuck point of just standing still. And you know, I love what you said of like, and I think that is a gift of grief. There's so many gifts of grief and we can like talk about it and let's actually get into that then because I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand. It's like the gift of grief and also like an unexpected thing of grief. At least what I've learned was, yeah,

becoming very familiar with the duality that is happening all at the same time. And I remember like, I vividly remember not that maybe like a few months after my dad passed or yeah, like about that or so, like I went out to an event with my friends and we were like at this like underground like music event and it was so fucking cool. We're watching our friends DJ. The music was awesome. I was like in this like hypnotic state, dancing, loving it. And then like,

like this this like Tidal wave not like a tidal wave but just like this like more of just like a subtle like like wind kind of a gust of wind just like went over me of grief where I was like, whoa Okay, I'm I'm happy right now, but I also suddenly feel really sad and I also feel guilty about That I'm out here having fun. My mom is at home Probably grieving even harder than I am right now

Erin (23:48.513)
And.

Rebecca Espinoza (23:56.475)
And just like it literally happened so quickly and I was feeling all of the emotion. was like on the dance floor and I had to like move through. was like, okay, it's okay though. You're here right now. You're having fun. Like me and this, this is the moment. And then you're not ignoring your grief. Like I'm gonna come back to it and acknowledge it. And I did literally, I came home that night and I cried later on.

Erin (24:03.022)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:19.195)
But I was like, I went through that wave that you just talked about. It's like, was on a high, then in that moment I was being brought down, because the grief just like, stuck up on me. I think, there's so many, you know, that was an unexpected teaching of grief for me, that I was like, learning about, it's okay to have multiple truths.

Erin (24:42.734)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:43.831)
in a moment in your season of life, in that little present moment where you feel happy and you're so fucking grateful and you're high on bliss about life, but then there is an undercurrent of like sadness, but then it grows into gratitude because of what you experience and you realize how grateful you are for what you actually have in life. And like, it's so complex and like, it sometimes can even be put into words. You just have to like be in it and let like the tidal wave kind of take you in the journey.

Erin (25:12.494)
Right. Exactly. I love that visual of the tidal wave and just moving through the different emotions. I think so many of us, there's a lot of fear around anger, grief, sadness. I think we fear getting stuck and feeling that way forever. However, the nature of emotions and the nature of what you're experiencing, it moves.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:30.203)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (25:37.76)
it moves within 90 seconds, you know, if you just allow yourself to feel it without trying to change it and just be with it. Or for your instance in that, like being like, okay, I'm gonna shelf this for now and I'm gonna come home and move through this and be with this, you know? And like, it's oftentimes when we just allow it, it actually reveals the truest gift to us is that, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:38.499)
Always.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:53.903)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (26:02.764)
I can feel multiple things at once and I'll feel happy again. I'll feel joy, I'll feel bliss, I'll feel pleasure, I'll feel all these things and also the heavier things. that's just, that's something that we've got to accept is like, if we want one, have to do the other as well. And we have to be willing to feel it and move through it and be with it. And also if it feels debilitating, if it feels overwhelming where you can't handle it, like that is why we have.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:19.767)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Erin (26:31.214)
community. This is why we have our family members, know, people where we're like, I actually can't handle this right now. Like I need a hug. I need to just cry in someone's arms, you know. it's, it's so, grief is the most challenging and rewarding thing I think we get to experience as humans.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:41.051)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:54.671)
Yeah, and I think if you can navigate grief and allow yourself to be in the initiation and to go through the underworld to the experience of it, I feel like you could do anything. Like honestly, because after being in this, dude, I mean, there are days where I'm just like, I don't want to, I'm done. Like, I don't want to deal with any of this. And you're just like, I'm crying on the floor. Just like,

Erin (27:09.128)
Really?

Rebecca Espinoza (27:23.451)
But then you come out after that and you're like, and now I'm here where I'm like, wow, I feel there's so much possibility and hope in my future. And it is a strange feeling still to feel like kind of in the past thinking about, yeah, that person is now a memory. They're not like a physical, tangible.

Erin (27:40.718)
And.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:46.715)
person with me moving into the future in real time. it's, it's so complex, but I, yeah, I want to get into a little bit more about like the gift of grief. Like what has, what else has grief gifted you? What do you feel like it's gifted you?

Erin (28:07.916)
The first thing that comes to mind and the most important thing that comes to mind is grief has allowed me to really recognize how temporary this life that I have is and that this really stark reality of we all will die one day.

You know, that sounds like morbid maybe, but it's truth, you know, it's real and it's and that when we can befriend that and actually stand side by side with the true reality of being human is like, okay, our mortality and being friends with that. It allows us to really show up differently and show up in our hearts truly because it's like, why waste any fucking time? know, like time is literally

Rebecca Espinoza (28:38.459)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:59.653)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:03.195)
Honestly.

Erin (29:05.632)
it's fleeting and our experience of it is fleeting and we're aging every single day and the people that we love and care about that we cherish and we experience this life with, we don't know when things will shift. grief or specifically loss, I guess, has really taught me to

Rebecca Espinoza (29:22.275)
us.

Erin (29:27.658)
cherish the present moment, try to be as present as possible, stay true to my heart and stay true to myself. I feel like those have been the biggest lessons as well as

grief has also taught me to.

Erin (29:47.262)
really make space for my emotions and make space for the discomfort. And every time I have resistance is an invitation to just be without having to change it. Because immediately when we go or when I go to try and change it or fix or distract or disassociate or get out of my body, which is natural, we all do that, that immediately when I do that, I'm getting out of my human experience. And that is such a gift.

to be able to actually experience grief and experience being a human. And so that feels.

like the really, like the deepest parts of what grief has kind of shown me.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:30.779)
Yeah, thank you. I feel like I just echo all of that because that's exactly what it has sparked in me as well. yeah, I think the big one definitely was

Erin (30:32.867)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:45.723)
the like knowing I started asking myself those big questions, bigger questions. I like I was already asking them prior the existential questions, but they started coming even further into the forefront of my mind where I was like, who am I and who do I want to be? Like what kind of life do I want to create?

this could be gone tomorrow, the people that I love could be gone tomorrow, am I gonna die really knowing that I lived my life in accordance to how my heart and my soul wanna live life, or I'm just stuck right now kind of in this hamster wheel of doing things that I feel like I should be doing rather than I want to do them. So that was a big aha for me, especially because I did have conversations with my dad as he was.

you know, getting sicker throughout his diagnosis. And he was just having a lot of like, I wish I would have done that. I wish I would have done this. And that's very illuminating and eye opening to hear someone who is dying. And it's so true. It's such a cliche. Like, again, when people talk about people on their deathbed saying like, what do they wish that what are they talking about? It's like talking about things that they wish they would have done and like experience life more, been with their loved ones more, things like that. And that's something that just really like

Erin (32:00.15)
Thank you.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:01.465)
stood out for me. you know, it's everything, the end is inevitable. That's like, point blank, the end is inevitable. And when I think about loss and grief, I think about the tarot card, the in the traditional like, like Rider Waite tarot deck, and it's the death card. And it's, you know, the Grim Reaper basically, on its white horse coming to claim.

someone and who it came to claim was the king. And the king is just like flat laying on the ground. The queen and like the princess are grieving and are so sad. And this big message was like, you know, some way to interpret is like death, which is like loss in general loss and endings do not discriminate. come for it comes for everyone, whether you're rich or poor, you're middle class, you're whatever your skin color is, your ethnic background, like

Erin (32:48.078)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:01.303)
it's going to come for everyone. Endings, death, loss of your loved ones, of your seasons of your life, of yourself in some ways, it will always happen. You can't escape it. And what's really beautiful about this card is on the far end of the card, there's a gorgeous sunrise coming up to depict, okay, down the road though, there is still a new day, new beginnings.

Yes, grieve, be in it now, be in the loss, but don't forget the future. And I think, you know, when I was deep in the midst of the grief, I was not thinking about possibilities of the future, like no fucking way. Or like not even, I think when I was deep in like knowing that there was gonna be a loss happening, I couldn't think about a future and like the positive possibilities. I was just in it, which is part of it. You're supposed to be in it.

Erin (33:33.638)
Yeah.

Erin (33:45.199)
Great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:58.031)
And then once you allow yourself to kind of move through the spirals and go up a bit, then you can realize, I'm in a different perspective now. Like, okay, life is fucking beautiful and there is potential ahead of me. So that's definitely what grief has gifted me as well. Like without a doubt.

Erin (34:15.15)
I echo that as well. Wow. Yeah. And it's almost like...

Like life keeps going and it's okay to be in our experience and experience grief, but it almost makes life so sweet because it's like, wow, this is what life is about is it gets to that point where we will pass on and that's okay. It's like, that's why this one precious, I feel like Mary Oliver has a quote about like,

Rebecca Espinoza (34:41.349)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Erin (34:50.144)
Yeah, like, what will you do with this one wild, crazy, precious life? I might have butchered that, but she says that in one of her poems, and it's literally so beautiful. And it always brings me back into, yeah, like, what are we going to do with this one precious life that we have? it might be from her poem Summer Days, or Summer Day, the end, I think, right? It's beautiful, and it's simple.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:06.523)
Mm-hmm. I was looking for the quote.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:13.275)
It is from Summer Day. She says, tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? So, oh, chills. Mary Oliver always gives me chills. Did you listen to the episode that I sent you?

Erin (35:22.894)
Yeah, like it's simple, but it's great. I have chills too.

Erin (35:31.118)
I did. I did. my gosh, that was so good. I did too. my gosh, that one, that poem is so beautiful. I've been listening to like poetry to fall asleep. Yeah, and it's so good. And that wild geese is a beautiful poem. Like that is just like a...

Rebecca Espinoza (35:34.735)
I cried during the the goose one, the one about the geese.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:45.349)
The bad time one,

Rebecca Espinoza (35:51.611)
literally started crying when I was listening to it. like, why am I crying? Her poetry is so, you feel it in your body and your soul. Like it's, yeah, just tangent. If you haven't read Mary Oliver, go read her.

Erin (35:59.439)
do.

Erin (36:04.958)
do it's she's amazing she's probably one of my faves yeah

Rebecca Espinoza (36:08.495)
Yeah, yeah. And last one I wanna add about the gift of grief has been like deeper connection to people.

Yeah, that it's gifted me that and but that's only because we've allowed ourselves to go there and be witnessed in that because there are people who hide in their grief and they're like, no, I don't want anyone to see me like this. I don't want to do that. That is hurting you. If it's not doing anything for your healing journey, it is. I don't I don't believe like I obviously think there are moments when you do need to be alone. And I've had that for sure on my group grieving journey. But

Erin (36:23.374)
Absolutely. my gosh, yeah, Vex.

Erin (36:41.39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:53.691)
You can't hold all of this by yourself. Like who's gonna hold you when you can't get yourself back up? Like someone else has to do it for you and that's okay in those moments like that, like absolutely okay. And it's brought me closer to, yeah, like my friends, all of you and my ex, like so many different parts of my community who have like seen me just like break down and like, I'm like, I don't care. Like this is where I'm at right now and you can hold me and you can hug me and.

Erin (37:20.512)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:21.263)
You can hear about my fears and my angers and letting yourself receive through that process. And it's brought me closer to my family, like all parts, like my extended family. It's been so beautiful that to like, there's been like big, deeper connections built within our families because of this big loss that happened. Like people reconnecting, coming back together because of this grief that this loss that happened. And that's a really, really special, I think part of

Erin (37:41.135)
Right. Definitely.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:50.991)
grief and like when you go to a funeral, everyone comes together for this person to celebrate life. Ideally, it's to celebrate life. But that is a moment where everyone can be together and hold each other in that way. And I would hope that it could last, right? And like, that's something that I've wanted to hold myself accountable to where I'm like, I want to keep these connections with family members.

Erin (38:09.366)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:17.285)
that brought us together during these times. And like, I don't just want it to fizzle away and fall away. And that's holding me accountable to want to like, to deepen in that with these cousins that were there for me, like, so in ways that like, just get overwhelmed with gratitude with how they supported us through everything. So that's a big one. I think about grief is the way it can bring people together.

Erin (38:38.83)
That is actually so spot on too, because it's almost like grief when we allow people in during that time. People want to support us, like your family, your friends, if you allow people in, people want to support each other. And I think the deeper connections piece is so, that's like a little.

secret of grief as well as like there's, there's a rebuilding that can happen. And there's also just like, deep love there. And so much things that you probably don't even expect and people showing up in different ways. And yeah, but I get you also on like wanting to keep those connections as time goes on and like stay accountable and keep like connected. It's yeah, it's so big.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:08.291)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:34.373)
Yeah, and that itself is like its own, you know, complex thing, you know, maintaining so many connections when it's so difficult sometimes as like as a human to you can't maintain so many close connections all at once. But it's I guess the different seasons you go through in life and who you go through them with is the big one. And, you know, we talked a lot about grief as in the sense of like death and that kind of loss. But, you know, grief is also

Erin (39:52.912)
Exactly. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:04.449)
applicable to the grief of a relationship, breakups, obviously we all know them so well, the grief of a friendship, a friendship breakup, you know, the grief of, I mean, collective grief, we can start talking about that as well, but there's different types of grief that I think we can experience. And I just like, yeah, I kind of want to get into like our experience with like collective grief, because I think that's, I feel like breakup grief is like one that's talked about a lot.

Erin (40:18.51)
Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:34.555)
I think you hear about that a lot. And I think it is, you go through the same five stages, honestly, you do, as like the losing a loved one, like to a physical death in that sense. And I mean, we've had our fair share. we get it. But the collective grief, can we get into that a little bit? I don't think that's talked about a lot. And we...

Erin (40:48.814)
Been there. there. We got it. Yeah. Yeah. So much. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (41:02.395)
did our event a few years, two years ago called the Gift of Grief because of the war that was happening in Palestine. And there was also a war in Ukraine and like there was all these things happening and then the fires happened here in LA, which strike a whole different level of grief too for the collective. Like what's been your experience with collective grief?

Erin (41:19.751)
Right. Mm-hmm. Gosh, I feel like the season of, I'll just say the season of the world right now, there seems to be a lot happening that is igniting grief in many of us, you know? And I feel like for me personally,

I've had moments feeling extremely overwhelmed in my nervous system by just the amount of information that we see and consume that of course, I think there's a balance of being informed enough. However, being too informed is also a thing. I think where it's where you're dysregulated. And so I noticed that was happening for me. And I'm like, how can I hold?

Rebecca Espinoza (42:10.746)
Yeah.

Erin (42:18.198)
this grief and this pain and suffering that's happening in places that I'm not. And also with the fires in LA, super close, but yet it wasn't affecting me directly. It's like, there's this push pull, I think, within me where I'm feeling so overwhelmed by it. And I'm like, my gosh, what can I do to help? What can I do to support? And at the same time,

Rebecca Espinoza (42:41.221)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin (42:45.962)
I am also taking care of my nervous system. And so I feel like the grief that I've experienced in the collective has been so wavy, is how I describe it for myself, is I'm experiencing it and feel moments of helplessness, to be honest. And then in other moments, I'm feeling really hopeful and I'm like, okay, great. Like I can do what I can and how can I, that sounds cheesy too, but be the change that I want to see in the world.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:06.318)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:13.177)
Yeah, exactly.

Erin (43:13.902)
through my experience, through my life, through the way I relate to the person making my coffee to the guy at the gym. It's like, how can I relate to my environment and my world around me so that can ripple out into the collective? And that being said too, I also acknowledge and recognize that it is a privilege for me to also see that and be that and be in.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:20.505)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:32.667)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:37.083)
privilege.

Erin (43:40.982)
my body as Erin and experience what I'm experiencing. that is also such a key component to all of this is holding both and of all of that, you know, being like recognizing the privilege that I have to be able to say that as well as truly doing the things in my day to day life to hold the grief, be with the grief, send my prayers, let it go, help where I can. You know, it's such a...

Rebecca Espinoza (43:51.576)
Exactly.

Erin (44:09.762)
And I think many people experience this with what's going on in the world is like, you feel almost guilty sometimes that you're not doing enough, but then it's like, what do I do? It's such a inner push-pull. And I also feel like it's really important to take care of our nervous system and like resource within ourselves in the process of it all as well.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:16.4)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:29.005)
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Like, I think it's just so difficult in this world nowadays because there are obviously so many problems. There have always been so many problems though, but like you said, with our instant access to information on the news, but also social media, we feel like somehow we're responsible to respond to all of it.

and to be the change in all of it. like, for example, I'm not an animal rights lawyer activist. I'm not a environmentalist lawyer, things like that, that I'm deeply in the field where I'm so specialized in it that I'm like, well, what can I do? Donate money? I guess that's like, but again, I think, yes, you can do that. And also you can, like you said,

live in accordance to your higher expression of who again going back to who you want to be because if this grief is coming up for you just like I would on an individual level if you lost someone and you're having these questions who how do I want to be in the world with my family now how do I want to interact and what do I want to create for my family it's like the same thing with this collective grief I like you're watching these wars happening you're watching children being trafficked and you're just like

Erin (45:53.477)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:54.795)
It fuels me. I get so angry and I've also like, yeah, seen videos on my phone where I'm like fucking sobbing and crying or I'm watching this documentary right now. I'm like sobbing about these realities of what's happening in the world and like why would people act this way? And in truth, I can't change the way people act. I can't do that. There are people that are doing these things to the collective right now and I can't change that. What I can do is be that higher expression of myself so I can make even

Erin (46:06.606)
And

Ready.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:24.847)
the smallest difference in my community. Like right now what I'm thinking about is like me being, me teaching these kids at my school permaculture. I'm not saying it's gonna save the world, it's not gonna save the world, but I don't know what it's gonna do to positively, I mean, I already see the positive impact it's having in them and like the ability that they're, what the ideas are coming up with and just the future that they want to see that is better for themselves and for the world.

I'm just doing these things because I love to be a teacher. I really love permaculture. I love to create and I'm bringing this in the way that I know it from my heart. And in the future, maybe it'll make a positive impact for one of these kids and goes and designs like a incredible like thing for the environment. I don't know what it's gonna do, but what I do know is that right now this is what I can offer. I'm not gonna go to Palestine and what am I gonna do out there? What, what?

Erin (47:10.899)
Yeah.

Erin (47:15.982)
Right. Right.

Rebecca Espinoza (47:21.443)
You know, these are, and I know that's a very probably controversial, I think these are probably controversial perspectives, because again, we are privileged. I can't change the fact that I'm privileged. And I think a lot of people can't. And that is something, so it's like, yeah, what are you gonna do with your privilege to make positive impact? Yes, I can donate money. Yes, I can do that. And that's what I can do, probably to save.

Erin (47:44.77)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (47:48.603)
people in Palestine or in other parts of the world or for child trafficking or whatever causes that I care about, I also only have limited money so I can only do so much of that. So again, it just comes back to these things like what can you do to make an actual long term lasting impact that will hopefully resonate in other ways? Because you don't know what your actions can compound to.

Erin (48:03.949)
Yeah. Exactly. And I think this is why heart led leadership is so important in every area of whatever industry. If you are heart led, if you are in integrity with your purpose, your soul's calling, as well as just

how you are outside of your industry or career or whatever, doesn't have to do with any of that. If you're in integrity with that, that is sending a ripple out. That is affecting the people you're connecting with, affecting the people they're connecting with, and so on. All of the turmoil that's happening, I truly feel like there is a rip in people's consciousness who maybe are disconnected from themselves, and it's on a big scale. And of course, there's no

Rebecca Espinoza (48:42.0)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:55.408)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (49:00.286)
answer to how to solve it because these are big issues. These are issues that have been around since, my God, since like the Roman Empire or like even before. Like, you know, there's just, there's always been that it's a reality of our world and like living on earth, you know, and it's not to dismiss it at all. But it's like, okay, how can we reel it in and be like, what can I do? Can I, I can choose how I am. I can choose how I'm experiencing.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:03.483)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:08.802)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:15.003)
It's true.

Erin (49:29.356)
my environment and my people around me. And that's truly what's in our control. And that's all we can control. yeah, it's coming back to holding both and I think also, you know, just really holding it all. And that is grief, you know, just like holding all of it.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:30.267)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:44.251)
Truly, truly, because that guilt, yeah, that is grief. It's so true. And again, it's like, you're not gonna stop living your life because this is happening in somewhere else. I hope you wouldn't. And there is a whole process to experience through that, of course, maybe the guilt. And I think that's normal. And I think that's why it's talking about these topics that are important and like bringing people together to just...

express so we don't feel alone around these things and see what can be created from that. And I think a lot of beauty is created from grief, so much beauty.

Erin (50:20.479)
So much beauty. I look at my life and I truly think grief has shaped my life, my perspective, my acceptance of what is. I truly look back and I think, and I say this to people sometimes and I'm like, of course I never would have wished that my mom passed away when I was seven. However, that experience truly, I wouldn't be who I am right now if that didn't happen.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:27.163)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:38.425)
No, no.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:47.589)
Mm-hmm.

Erin (50:48.172)
And that's a gift that I've taken away from it. And she's always with me. I believe she's with me, all of the people who pass away or pass on all the pets, everything, they're always with us. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:51.789)
Yeah, of course.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:57.317)
Yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, beautiful. Well, we'll leave it at that. Is there anything else on your heart that you want to share that is coming through on this?

Erin (51:11.502)
Mm, no, that feels really complete. I loved this conversation. I mean, I could talk about grief for ages, I think, because it's there's so many parts to it. And it's beautiful. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:14.169)
Yeah.

Hey!

So many layers to it, so many layers to it, I'm sure, and I'm sure we're gonna continue our conversation when I see the sun.

Erin (51:29.422)
Totally. I love it. I love you.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:33.179)
Okay, well, I love you so much and I'm so happy that you said yes to being on here and I'm really grateful for you. So grateful.

Erin (51:40.59)
I'm grateful for you too. Thanks for having me. I love you too.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:43.541)
Yes. Okay, well, thank you, everyone, for tapping in and listening. If this episode resonated with you at all, you can reach out to us for a conversation. You can DM the video, the podcast, Instagram, DM me personally, and I'd be happy to chat with this. you feel like this would resonate with anyone that's going through grief right now, please share it with them and spark the conversation and remind them that it's normal and that they're not alone. okay. Thank you so much, and we'll see you next week.