65. Financial Literacy For Women: How to Start Building Wealth and Your Richer Life with Ashley Feinstein Gerstley

In this enlightening conversation, Shay chats with Ashley Feinstein Gerstley, founder of The Fiscal Femme, about the importance of financial literacy in our modern-day world, especially for women. They discuss Ashley's personal journey into finance, the significance of mindset in managing money, and practical strategies for building wealth. Ashley shares actionable steps for women to take control of their finances and build generational wealth, highlighting the importance of community and support in this journey. Regardless of where you are in your money journey, you can start today. They dive into the topic of debt - reframing your relationship to it and finding an empowered approach for its management. Ashley uniquely merges her perspectives with practical financial strategies and mindset approaches to support women in confidently stepping onto a path of financial wealth and freedom. If your richer life is calling you, it's time to tap into this episode. 

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley, CFP® is a personal finance expert, speaker, and the 2x award-winning author of Financial Adulting and The 30-Day Money Cleanse. She founded The Fiscal Femme, and has helped thousands of people feel financially confident, achieve major financial goals, and destress their relationships with money. She has appeared on or been quoted in The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times, the TODAY Show, CNBC, Forbes, NBC, Glamour and The New York Times. Ashley has worked in the financial services industry for over fifteen years: first as an investment banker, then in corporate finance, and most recently running The Fiscal Femme. 

Key Moments:

• Financial literacy is crucial for women's empowerment.
• Teaching children about money is essential for their future success.
• Mindset plays a significant role in financial decision-making.
• It's important to normalize conversations about money.
• Paying yourself first is a key strategy for saving.
• Creating a money journal can increase awareness of spending habits.
• Building a supportive community can enhance financial confidence.
• Investing should be for money not needed in the short term.
• Paying off high-interest debt is crucial before investing.
• Starting small with investments can build confidence.
• Having Money Parties and tracking spending can unlock financial insights.
• Viewing finance as an act of self-love is empowering.
• Debt should be viewed without shame; it's a tool, not a failure.
• Understanding different perspectives on debt is important in relationships.
• A rich life is defined by freedom and the ability to enjoy life.

Connect with Ashley:

The Money Club: https://www.thefiscalfemmemoneyclub.com/

Newsletter: https://thefiscalfemme.com/money-musings

Additional Resources:

https://thefiscalfemme.com/the-30-day-money-cleanse-book

https://www.financialadultingbook.com/

https://thefiscalfemme.com/downloads

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Chapters

• 1:11 The Journey to Financial Empowerment
• 4:00 Understanding Money Mindset
• 5:55 Teaching Kids About Money
• 9:38 Legacy and Wealth Building
• 11:00 Mindset vs. Strategy in Wealth Building
• 12:48 Shifting from Survival to Wealth Building
• 18:46 Advocating for Financial Awareness
• 22:02 Practical Steps for Financial Empowerment
• 28:41 Transforming Money Mindsets
• 30:22 Practical Steps to Start Investing
• 34:11 Building Financial Identity and Habits
• 39:11 The Importance of Enjoying Life and Money
• 46:36 Understanding Debt and Relationships
• 54:18 Defining a Rich Life

Transcript

Shay Frago (00:01.064)
All right, hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Vida. We have a very special guest today, Miss Ashley Feinstein of The Fiscal Femme. Super excited to be interviewing her and let her share her wisdom and expertise when it comes to the world of money, especially financial literacy for women. Before we get started, we always like to ask all of our guests. We typically say it in Spanish, como esta tu corazón, which just means how is your heart today. So we'd love to hear.

hear your take on that.

Ashley (00:31.877)
It is feeling very good right now since I came on and saw your face and we're starting this conversation. I've had a lovely day. So my heart is bursting, I would say.

Shay Frago (00:41.898)
Yay, yay, I love to hear it. I feel the same. Like my heart feels very full of joy today. I'm going to be traveling a little later today to actually go see Becca, the co-host. I'm going to go home for the weekend and so I'll get to see her out in LA with a few other close girlfriends. I'm really excited for that. But I figured we can just get started so our Vida the audience could get to know you like sharing a little bit about your background, what led you to specialize in financial literacy and like generational wealth for women.

Ashley (01:11.643)
Yes. So I essentially started doing what I'm doing because I needed it myself. I studied finance and I worked in finance and still knew nothing about my own money. And I thought,

I don't know about this and I have a finance background. Who does? And turns out most of us wish we knew more about money and personal finance. It doesn't matter if I'm in a room at a bank. If I say, do you think you should know more? Every hand in the room goes up really in most rooms I'm in. Even when I would talk to mentors when I started my business, they were like years down the line, super successful. And after they helped me, they're like, can we talk about my personal finances? I'm like, my gosh, you too.

Shay Frago (01:37.08)
Yeah.

Ashley (01:52.015)
I started sharing about my own money journey back in 2011 on a blog called The Fiscal Femme and people started asking me for help and asking me to write for them and it kind of evolved, all evolved from there and why I...

I care about it. So I needed it. So I wanted to provide it, but it's given me so much agency and choice in my own life. And I see it in the lives of other women to have that financial wellness and that financial stability. And so that's really what drives me is so that women can do what they want, get out of situations that aren't serving them or are actually horrible and getting to live their purpose and make the difference that they're meant to make in the world.

Shay Frago (02:38.348)
Yeah, I love that. I definitely resonate with your story. It's sort of like when I started my money journey, I remember being like, I feel like there's not a lot of resources and education specifically towards women. It's a lot for like men and women. We're just a little different when it comes to certain things like this, how we operate. But I feel like it's so important for us to know. And I remember it hasn't really been that long that women.

been able to have like their own checking accounts or savings accounts and things like that. And I feel like we forget that. So I like to give people permission that we didn't really know better until really more recently. And I think like times are changing and it's important for us to like really empower ourselves on this topic. I feel like money was definitely a

a no-no type of conversation with my family even, with certain friends, until I started to get more comfortable to just be like, I'm just curious, like, how do you invest or like, how do you do budgeting and make it a more normalized topic where we can learn from each other? So I feel like a lot of people feel that way, just not openly talking about money. What for you, because I do believe mindset and beliefs.

are an important aspect of this journey. Like what was your relationship with money growing up and how did that evolve over time and what would you want to want the audience to know?

Ashley (04:00.893)
Yes. Like you said, money mindset and relationship with money are so important. One thing I have people journal on to uncover their relationship with money or one of the questions I'll ask is what was your first money memory? And one of mine was, or actually the first time I remember money, I used to have American Girl dolls and I had one, had Felicity. And I really wanted to buy her a horseback riding outfit for her and I saved up my allowance and I had 28

Shay Frago (04:13.518)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (04:21.646)
yeah.

Ashley (04:31.047)
and I like I think I ripped out the page and I circled it and I put cash like $28 in cash in an envelope I don't think I even knew how to stamp it anything but I sent it off to buy this outfit and I felt very empowered like I'm purchasing this with my savings and nothing ever came

Shay Frago (04:51.541)
Ashley (04:52.061)
And I don't know if it's because I didn't do it correct or someone like saw this thick envelope filled with like ones, you know, and they took it. you know, that was my first interaction with money. And I was like, what's the point of this? You know, you work hard and then you send it off and nothing comes back. so things like that. And I think that was very informative for my first interaction. But then I graduated in 2008 when the...

Shay Frago (04:54.53)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (05:04.503)
Yes.

Ashley (05:16.579)
the financial crisis. And so you see people struggling, you see different experiences, and all of those things inform who we are with money.

Shay Frago (05:26.466)
Yeah, that really hits home. Like, I sent it to receive something and nothing happened here. I like a lot of people can definitely feel that way. think that's a great question. I'd be curious to know, because I know you have kids and we do have a lot of moms who are in our community as well. Like, how do you teach your kiddos about money? And like, what are some tangible ways parents could potentially do that? Because I think it is, those formative years really do matter.

Ashley (05:55.025)
Yes, and I think what I find is a lot of parents don't teach about it because they think, who am I to teach my kid about money? But even sharing as we're learning or the mistakes we make and how we're forgiving ourselves and putting on that growth mindset, like, I made this mistake and I'm learning from it, that's so important to share with our kids too. So I would encourage, even if you're like, I'm still figuring out who am I to teach about this, you should, and you can talk about it.

fun ways. I

like to be very open. if you might have an experience when you're a kid and you ask how much something costs or how much someone earns and you get shut down, I try to be really conscious about that. Even if someone's, it might not be socially appropriate to ask another person about that, but just how I respond and how it's okay to talk about money. Some people, as a society, we're working on talking about it more, but I like to talk about how much things cost, taking care of our things.

Shay Frago (06:44.45)
Yeah.

Ashley (06:57.855)
And then something that I started doing with my older son is he gets an allowance a dollar per year of his age so far and when and what we do is it's per week and it's for the things that he needs to do like his different exercises and homework and taking his plates to the sink and

whenever he wants something, like let's say you're in a museum gift shop, or even he can find things he wants to buy anywhere in a gas station, then I'll say, you can do it with your allowance money. Like I buy your birthday presents, your Hanukkah presents, if you need things for school, but any other types of toys and things he saves up for. And so I think that builds that muscle of learning to budget.

Shay Frago (07:27.374)
Yes.

Shay Frago (07:39.809)
Hmm.

Ashley (07:42.877)
And it's funny, as soon as he knows he's paying, things change if they're worth it. He's like, I really want that. OK, why don't you buy it? He's like, I don't know if it's worth it. And then we started matching because he showed an interest. So we started matching the $7 a week for investing. And so it's a great way to start talking about investing and teaching him about investing.

Shay Frago (07:43.032)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (07:52.526)
That's funny.

Ashley (08:07.069)
So I guess generally building that in and that's something my mom I remember it was later but for back to school shopping she would give me a budget or one time when I was at college I ran out of money for the week and she's like Buy a buy a loaf of bread and some peanut butter and you'll be fine, know, so I think Yeah, those are the types of conversations that that I'm having with him my my oldest at least

Shay Frago (08:24.108)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (08:33.228)
Yeah, that's awesome. feel like, I think I...

I feel like I wish my parents would have done that. And of course they did the best they could, where it's just like, what does it even mean to have a budget or what does it even mean? And I also think like in our society, like instant gratification, it's like being able to instill like, you, I don't like necessarily the word earning, because I feel like that can sometimes be negative, but like teaching like what is important and valuable for this current season of your life versus like, what can you wait on? Because I think instant gratification is like a huge issue that some people have nowadays.

Ashley (08:42.109)
course.

Ashley (09:07.153)
Yes, and yet is such a powerful word. It's like, I'm not getting this yet. Doesn't mean I'm depriving myself of getting it, just not at this, like you said, in this season or right now. I'm prioritizing other things. The language we use is so powerful.

Shay Frago (09:07.216)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (09:18.539)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shay Frago (09:23.352)
For sure, I agree with that, I love that. And then in the work you do, we always kind of like to talk about legacy, like what would the legacy you'd like to leave behind in this industry with the work that you're doing for people.

Ashley (09:38.877)
Great question. We actually did this in the money club yesterday talking about what type of wealthy person we want to be. So that makes me think of legacy, but my mission is getting women wealthy. And so as many lives and women as that build wealth, it's something I started tracking in the community to really quantify how much wealth we're building. I'd say that and having them, women feel empowered and

Shay Frago (09:46.19)
Mm.

Ashley (10:07.453)
you know, they know a lot more than we think. I think there can be like sometimes a confidence gap where we might know more or know just as much as our male counterparts, but we really want to understand investing before we do it or we really, and this is of course a generalization, but I want them to have the confidence and be involved and stewards of their finances and build that wealth.

Shay Frago (10:14.136)
for sure.

Shay Frago (10:33.772)
Yeah, I love that. And as a fellow money clubber, I definitely feel like it does help build confidence, everything that you teach us in there. I'd be curious to know though, because we do have some people who will be brand new to this topic or just dipping their toes into it when it comes to wealth building. How much would you say is mindset versus strategy? And like, where do they overlap? And what would you say is important about this, this process?

Ashley (11:00.783)
Yes, they're both. So it's funny because taking the steps, like I'm a big proponent of taking small consistent steps, which I think is often a relief because we might think, I'm starting my money journey. I have to transform overnight. I have to spend all week creating this plan. But really, it's a lifelong journey. We're never done, which is kind of the bad news. But the good news is it can be fun and easy. And we can take small steps over time. And sometimes,

mindset gets in the way of us taking those steps and also can impact what steps we take. So they're so intertwined and both are really important, but I would say what I've noticed is if you know what you should be doing and are still not doing it, then you might have some mindset, some mindset things to address in there.

Shay Frago (11:50.572)
That's a really good distinction. Like you have the education at your fingertips and yet you're still not taking action likely means there's something there with mindset. And I know at least for my personal journey mindset was a huge block. Like I am someone who literally absorbs all information I can on a topic that I want to learn about. Cause I'm like, I want to understand so that I can do this well. And I do feel that, you know, we're going to make certain mistakes at the beginning. And sometimes we just kind of have to rip the bandaid off and go.

But I feel like there was a point in time where I was operating from like this survival mechanism where it was just like, I need money to be able to just like feed myself and pay the bills. And that I think you call it feast and famine cycles. And I feel like that is a common experience for a lot of people, men and women alike. I wouldn't even say it's gender specific, given inflation, how society is right now, all these kinds of things. So.

Ashley (12:34.087)
Yes.

Shay Frago (12:48.318)
what would be your tips in shifting from that like survival energy into wealth building and being able to find harmony in that because I don't necessarily know that there's always balance but finding harmony in in that kind of cycle if someone's in that area.

Ashley (13:02.877)
Yes, it's such a good question. And I love the idea of the harmony because, you know, a lot of times it doesn't go away. Maybe you see something on the news and it's triggered, but it's shifting out of it or having knowing what that other thing feels like. That's really important. I think something you mentioned earlier.

was just knowing, talking about how we don't learn about this growing up. And so I think a big first step in the process and something I like to always emphasize is how much we have working against us because it can feel like, I'm bad with money. I'll never figure this out. I keep making mistakes. But there are so many things working against us. And we've touched on a few of them. But it's not learning about it.

something that we deal with every single day, being taboo to talk about with our closest friends and family. There's gaps for women, women of color, mothers, people with disabilities, if you're in the LGBTQ plus community. So all of that compounds. Plus now marketing has gotten so smart. There's like billion dollar marketing budgets that are know exactly how to pull on our emotions and get us to buy things impulsively. And the list goes on and on. So

All that to say, even though that's a little depressing, it's more to have some compassion for ourselves that, of course, we're not thriving. We got to figure this out. It's going to take time. And I think that can really be a big mindset shift that can help us. The other is to realize that dealing with this is an act of self-love. I think a lot of times we think we should be doing this or we have to do it, and it's going to be no fun and be restricting. an

Shay Frago (14:35.551)
Mm. Yeah.

Ashley (14:43.591)
Of course there are trade-offs, but if what we want are our goals,

And that's what dealing with this gets us, whether it's like the peace of mind, the getting the home, the starting a family, the building the rainy day, the paying down debt. That's what we want most. And it's such a gift to ourselves to get it. And we can build in those fun things into our plan if they fit. And we don't feel guilty about them. We can really enjoy them. And so there's actually this, it's so different than some of us would imagine when we spend time with our finances.

And also thinking that this is a skill just like any other skill. So you can grow at it and get better and no one's just bad with money or I'm bad with math so I'm bad at money. I can't do math in my head to save my life. So we have calculators, we have spreadsheets, we don't need to be good at math. the math's pretty simple too. It's a lot of addition and subtraction. But I think those are really important. And then...

Shay Frago (15:31.287)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (15:36.131)
Yeah.

Ashley (15:48.347)
to specific mindset things, I would say thinking about where they came from and how those mindsets have been protecting us and serving us up until now. And that's why we're keeping them, right? And then thinking about, okay, that's what I'm getting from this mindset.

Maybe it's keeping my business small or I don't want to be like my parents so I'm spending everything I have, whatever it is. Now, what is it costing us at this point? What is the true cost of that? And I think.

thinking about what you want your mindset to be like versus what you, it's hard for our brains when we say don't think like this, right? So instead of this, what do we wanna think like? And like remind ourselves of those mantras and those mindsets as much as possible. So a lot of things, very long answer to your question, but mindset is so important and so I'm really glad you asked about it.

Shay Frago (16:31.181)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (16:41.922)
Yes.

Shay Frago (16:46.976)
Yeah, for sure. Would you say the mindset gets to kind of come first or the strategy or they they really do kind of need to be worked on together?

Ashley (16:57.969)
You know, it's, I would say I always want people to just start. So I would say whatever feels easiest if they have a money move, right? If, or if they're like, I can't even take a money move because of the mindset, whatever feels like that first thing to just get them going. I think it is going to be kind of in, in lockstep and I still encounter mindset things and I'm like, wow. I didn't, I didn't realize that. And so, and, and same with strategy because the world changes, our goals change our life changes. So

Shay Frago (17:02.168)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (17:22.148)
Ashley (17:27.793)
We're always going to be learning and leveling up in both.

Shay Frago (17:31.37)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. feel like sometimes I go through phases where it's like all mindset.

and like getting my energy right to feel comfortable taking the strategy like you mentioned earlier. And then sometimes I'm just like fully in strategy, but then I'm so in strategy that I forget the mindset. And if I mess something up in strategy, I'm like, we got to go back the other way. But I know some people are definitely curious, like, which one should I focus on more? But I like that perspective of like, whichever feels easiest and will get you to move in that next step is, going to be the best thing. And those baby steps are so, so important. I know you mentioned a little bit

Ashley (17:50.224)
you

Shay Frago (18:07.636)
and we have talked about it, like the gender gap when it comes to financial literacy or just finances in today's world, what would you say are some important things to be mindful of as a woman, especially like if they are in a more minority group, so that they can advocate for themselves? Because I feel like we get a lot of people who sometimes like knowledge is power in my opinion, and sometimes we just aren't aware of what we aren't aware from and we want to

be able to provide that for our community. So what would you say from your perspective and your research and experience would be some things that women can really start to advocate and become aware of.

Ashley (18:46.875)
Yes.

So there's a bunch, there's so many things. So I would say, even though these gaps are not because of us, know, they'd feel that there are things we can do to help. One of the things that came up over and over when I talked to people about it is that sometimes at work, you'll just have like the friend next to you who's like, have you opened up your 401k? Do you have a budget, you know, that the friend that gives you the nudge? And as we learn more, I think,

Shay Frago (18:55.138)
Yeah.

Ashley (19:18.041)
of course, it's worth it in and of itself for us to learn about money and personal finance so that we can do this for ourselves. But sometimes we need the push that it helps other people too. We shouldn't need it, but it does help other people too. So as we know more, like we can be the friend in the group chat that understands something or has had a successful negotiation or will teach the friend how to...

Shay Frago (19:23.395)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (19:30.316)
Yeah.

Ashley (19:46.605)
invest in the 401k. So I think that's something that always drives me especially in negotiating because we're kind of have a damned if we do damned if we don't sometimes, you know, we're, can negotiate, but you got to do it in a certain way or and sometimes it's not strong enough or it's too strong and it feels like you're walking this line. But when I go into those meetings, I feel a lot more empowered thinking that I'm doing this for women everywhere. Or, you know, name your group everywhere.

Shay Frago (19:56.589)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (20:10.541)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (20:14.225)
because that can make it feel impactful. But definitely, knowledge is power as far as transparency for pay and understanding what others earn, talking to, I can't tell you how many times when I've posted something around.

negotiation or pay gaps and someone said, Oh, I found out. I found out because they posted a job that they were paying someone $50,000 more for the same role that I had, you know, so talking to recruiters talking if it feels awkward, you can also talk to people who have left your company, specifically white men are the ones that you know, we want to know what they're being paid. But and you can even acknowledge if it's awkward, like I'm

Shay Frago (20:40.462)
Yeah.

Ashley (20:55.249)
I, this feels weird. I know, but I, this is, you know, there's pay gaps. I want to understand what someone in our position should be earning. And I think it would help to know. So, and there also are websites that you can look and see what people are earning. But I'd say the other gaps, you know, there's, in the investing gap. So I find, of course, if you're earning less and we have the pink tax that we're spending more.

So there's less money to invest and we tend to be more of the caretakers. So maybe there's family you're taking care of with that money as well. So that makes sense that there'd be less money to invest. But I think even when women have plenty of cash, sometimes it can feel scary because we work so hard for that money. We don't want it to just go away. And so I think learning about investing, getting confidence around investing so that we can, it's so challenging to save your way to wealth.

Shay Frago (21:20.386)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (21:47.672)
Yeah.

Ashley (21:48.103)
like compound interest really works so magical over time if we have our money invested in the market.

Shay Frago (21:54.764)
Yeah, I love that. Some good things to just start feeling more comfortable to normalize having those conversations, feel. Awesome. I know we've talked a lot about like the mindset and strategy pieces, but what would be like your top three to five practical steps women can take to start this journey, especially if there's someone who's like, but I'm bad with money. Like they're in that kind of mindset already. But yeah, some tangible, simple things that they can start doing.

Ashley (22:02.075)
Yeah.

Ashley (22:24.679)
Great question. So I would say becoming aware of where our money is going is a big one. And so to break it down as small as it feels manageable, and we know ourselves. So if anything I say, you're like, Ashley, there's no way I'm doing this. Or you're like, I'll do this. But maybe in a couple of weeks, just break it down smaller. But a great way to become more aware is just keeping a money journal. So to write down what you spend, I do them every week on Instagram. I'll say, what's your money journal philosophy?

for the last 24 hours, right? And of course, you want to do it longer than that, but that just shows, okay, that took like three minutes. And I was able to think about what I spent, I got more aware. If that feels daunting to track everything, you can just start with a category that you're curious about, like...

I have a feeling I spent too much in dining out. Okay, I'm gonna write down anytime I buy something that's food outside of groceries. So that is a great one because what that's doing and you can also scan through old statements, but that awareness helps us put together our plan. And so I'm a big proponent of having a plan. think if someone is totally against planning, there are ways to set up your bank account so that you can.

plan that way so you don't actually have to track your numbers. knowing, I want everyone to know what's coming in and what's going out and where it's going because that's where we have power to just knowing in itself is very powerful. And then if there are ways to shift it to serve us in better ways. So definitely the Money Journal. I'm a huge fan of what I call money parties.

Shay Frago (24:04.226)
Yeah.

Ashley (24:04.783)
And this is time we set aside. I have them every month, but I actually think it's beneficial to have them every single week where you put time in the calendar to show your money some love and sit down and say, okay, what have I spent over the last period? Am I meeting my goals? I meeting, did I set certain things aside where they wanted or are there things that came up throughout the week or month that I have to handle like canceling a subscription or?

that old 401k has been sitting there. I need to roll it over. If we do not set aside the time, it's just, it's not going to happen for most of us.

So that I think, I call them parties, I think we should make them fun. I have a money party playlist with songs that like pump me up about money and I often wear PJs and have a tea, but whatever makes it fun for you and you can have rewards for yourself at the end, just to encourage that ritual. I think it's a very powerful ritual and I've seen the power of it. So I know it's a very powerful ritual.

Shay Frago (25:06.104)
Yeah.

Ashley (25:06.935)
And then I would say also paying yourself first would be another really, honestly, that might be part one, because what I found is how we traditionally try to save money doesn't work for most of us. For 99 % of us, it doesn't work. There are some unicorns out there. But well, we earn money and we pay everybody else. So we pay our bills, we pay our debts, we even get gifts for people, live our lives. And then we like, hope that there will be money left over to save.

Shay Frago (25:24.214)
Yeah.

Ashley (25:37.073)
And then there's not. And then we think, when I make more money, there will be money left over to save. And somehow, magically, and this happened to me over and over after each raise and promotion, finally I'll start saving. Nope, there's no money left over. It's so sneaky. It gets taken up.

And it came to a head when I almost doubled my salary with a certain promotion and it still wasn't working. And I'm like, OK, this is never going to work. So what we have to do is we have to pay ourselves first, which means treating saving or putting money towards whatever our top goal is, like any other bill or expense. And so what I like to do is have a high yield savings account, which is another step you can take is get one of those, not only because you earn so

Shay Frago (26:20.494)
Thank

Ashley (26:23.263)
more interest in there, but also there's something magical about it being out of sight, out of mind, because it's so easy to transfer money from our savings in our bank to our checking when they're connected and they're right there. It just all feels available. So I would set up an automatic transfer to my high yield savings every single paycheck or every single month.

Shay Frago (26:35.415)
Yeah.

Ashley (26:46.781)
And if you have been living paycheck to paycheck and you're like, there's no way I can save, like start as little as, with as little as $5 and you'll start to prove to yourself that there may be or that it somehow works out because we're putting that money aside as soon as we get paid versus waiting to see what's left over.

Shay Frago (27:06.464)
Yeah, I feel like that's a really big one that shifted things for me and the money parties helped me not hate looking at my money because I feel like definitely at first, I call them money dates now, but same concept where it's just like I hated looking at my bank account. I hated seeing how like I was paycheck to paycheck or sometimes my account would go negative because my paycheck wasn't going to land for two more days or, you know, certain things like that.

amongst my money journey and I feel like I've been doing them consistently now for a year and a half. And then I did have to start very small, like what you suggested, like at first it was like $3 a week and I was like, we can do $3 a week, like that's silly if you can't and then it's grown and it is.

A huge part of it, I think, is just building the habit and finding that confidence, kind like what you touched upon earlier. So I love all of those. They're very easy rituals to do, but very game changing to see what you come up against or the little thoughts. Inner critic thoughts is what I call them, where it's just like, I'm not capable of it, but we can all do like.

three to five dollars at least every other week. And that's better than nothing. And I feel like sometimes once that happens, you kind of get over the hump. You're like, okay, I want to do, I want to do more. Like we want to typically do more. So I love that.

Ashley (28:32.349)
And I think to your point, you shift now, now you're a saver. So now you are the type of person who saves. And that's a huge shift, right? The person who can never save to the person who saves. Doesn't matter how much, you are a saver now. And then there is a switch where it becomes more fun to save than spend. And once that switch happens, you're on the road.

Shay Frago (28:41.133)
Yes.

Shay Frago (28:53.092)
yeah.

Shay Frago (28:57.056)
Yeah, I would agree with that. It took me some time to get there. But now that it's happened, I'm like, Whoa, I see how my like default instinct used to be like, I can just put this on a payment plan and on a credit card, I'm going to get it because I wanted it. But I'm like, No, that doesn't serve the long time goals. Because then when you identify with some things, I think identity is a huge piece. It's like once you start to identify as a certain type of person, you don't want to break that kind of commitment you have to yourself.

Ashley (29:03.047)
you

Shay Frago (29:25.57)
and I think with money, that's such a huge one. I think it's true of any sort of topic, but with money, since it's one of those things that we need money to be able to live in this material world and to have your own version of a thriving life. And so I think like, once you can make that switch, you're right. It just like, I don't know, something completely just changes inside of you. I don't know how to explain it. Yeah. I know we were talking a little bit about investing, so I

Ashley (29:45.873)
Yes.

Shay Frago (29:54.742)
would love for you to share with our community. Like what are some, maybe just one, because I feel like investing can be daunting. One to three, no more than three, I'd say. Like what would be some of those practical steps for someone who wants to get started investing and just feels also like overwhelmed in that topic because yeah, I feel like there are people who are ready to do it and maybe have some money that they can put towards something and just sitting there and can clearly make some more money for them.

Ashley (30:22.811)
Yes, so I would say first to think about what money you want to invest. So I view investing as money we don't plan to use in the short term and that allows us to wait out any movements in the market and it makes it a lot less risky because if I need it for my vacation next summer and the market happens to go down right before my vacation, am I pulling from savings? Am I taking a loss? Am I taking a smaller vacation, right? So this is for money we don't plan to use for the next five, 10 plus

years. So that means we want to have our rainy day fund and in our high yield savings we want to have or in savings whatever you choose. You want to have any short-term cash needs.

And also, I typically would recommend paying off high interest debt, like a credit card, anything above 7 % before putting a lot of our money towards investing. If you do not have those boxes checked, if you're still trying to fill the rainy day or pay down debt, I still think you can get started. Just set aside a certain amount, almost like you're going to a concert and you're going to set aside $200 or you're buying a course, essentially, for yourself through your own experience. So set aside $200.

account, which is a learning in and of itself. And then that gives you a way to practice because we learned so much by doing. And then when you hit those goals and you're ready to put money towards investing more significantly, you feel comfortable and you can hit the ground running. that's all like my pre-qualifier. And another thing just to your point on overwhelm, in my first job, I had a 401k.

Shay Frago (31:42.776)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (32:02.705)
someone said, you really should use it, which I'm really glad they did. They were that person for me. I had heard diversifying was good. So I literally chose every single investment option. And I had like 2 % in every single thing, like every retirement age across everything. Now, not what I would do now, right? But it was so much better that I did it than that I waited.

Shay Frago (32:07.137)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (32:23.063)
Yeah.

Ashley (32:27.941)
to know exactly what I was doing because that money was still being invested, maybe very complicated ways and not in the things that were a great fit for me, but I'm still so glad that I did it. So I think if that quells any nerves, it's like, want to just, we're not going to do it perfect. We want to get started. And it's still better that I did it than if I had waited until I knew more because it was, it would be a while before I knew more.

But how I like to invest, so again, you can do it in a way that pays yourself first, setting up that automatic transfer so that you're doing it over time. If you have a retirement account like a 401k through work is a great way to start because there's a limited number of options. So it can feel less overwhelming and can get it. That is investing. So you're choosing funds, you're choosing what to invest in.

But I do have a free investment guide that I can send and share with everyone because there are a bunch of steps to it. But I would say generally, my way of investing is very boring. And it takes learning some things and some jargon. But it's very low maintenance. And I don't have to follow the news. I don't have to watch what companies are doing. I just invest in low fee, broadly diversified funds and ETFs over the long term.

So I'm happy to share more about that. But that's the way I recommend investing,

Shay Frago (33:56.47)
Yeah, yeah. Awesome. We can definitely link that in the show notes for people then, because I know there's a lot of people who want to start investing but feel overwhelmed. Backed a little bit to the identity piece because of that.

I just feel like is gonna land home for a lot of people of just like you start to identify as a person who saves or you start to identify as a person who invests. And I personally believe that with our identities, it's usually shaped by habits and behaviors we do over time that just like solidify in our brain. So with that being said, what would you say like the top three to five habits would be for

women who do become financially successful that you've noticed have in common and just like also in your own life and whatnot.

Ashley (34:45.021)
It's very true that our identity, and it's interesting because something I have people do is think about what comes to mind when they hear the word investor, and it's often not us, right? But that's something we shift as we think of ourselves as investors, and I'm an investor too. We might not realize that we are. I would say the, so.

Shay Frago (34:58.679)
Yeah.

Ashley (35:11.113)
Definitely one loop I see is, know, I'm bad with money, so I'm either not going to handle it or I'm going to defer to someone else. Then I don't get the results I want, which reinforces that I'm bad with money and it kind of reinforces and reinforces. So I would say probably the big habit is just being an active participant in their money and active steward, like wanting to know what's going on with their money, not not just defaulting to maybe their partner. They think they know more.

or an advisor who kind of when they ask questions, they are they feel intimidated to ask them questions or, you know, they're the ones taking an active role in their finances. And you know, if you don't have those people in your life, then it's just like us ignoring our finances. So, so, so I'd say that just being active and engaged in it. If that is just a mantra, then there's you're always learning always doing something even if it's small over time.

Shay Frago (35:56.204)
Yeah.

Ashley (36:10.129)
Definitely investing to build wealth, grow their money. What else? Knowing where it's going, think it's, I know it's one of the more tedious parts of personal finance. I know that a lot of people are like, I'll do all the other things, but I don't want to know where I'm spending or figure it out. But so much gets unlocked that I'm like, just try it and see if what happens and if that shifts what you think about it.

Shay Frago (36:28.398)
Yeah.

Ashley (36:40.161)
But even if you're using an app that works for you or tracking it yourself, you can do it by hand. I used to do it by hand when I first started my money journey and I would put like little smiles and my total spending for the day. Yes. Or you can use spreadsheets, which is what I use now. But knowing where it's going, I think, is another habit. yes, and those two mindset things that I mentioned, like viewing this as

Shay Frago (36:50.498)
Yeah, I made it like a creative process.

Shay Frago (36:58.072)
same.

Ashley (37:09.221)
an act of self love as a gift to ourselves and then knowing that we can all get better at it. So it's not like I make a mistake and now, this is futile. I'm never going to be good at this. I would say so those are some of the common things I see in people who are really successful in their finances.

Shay Frago (37:27.352)
that I have those habits now. So any day now. Yeah.

Ashley (37:31.387)
And I think building in treats too. think, you know, if you, food and money are very similar and you think, yes, some people can have success by being really restrictive with their money. Most of us aren't, right? We kind of rebel against ourselves and fight back and then overspend. And it's like that feast and famine not even created by income, created by ourselves.

Shay Frago (37:52.759)
Yeah.

Ashley (37:57.661)
But even if you are successful at that, there's really, takes out so much of the joy. So I think whether it's frugal joys that are like free or inexpensive, but just making sure that we build in treats or you you get a bonus and maybe you used to put it all towards something fun and now you want to put it towards mostly towards a top goal you have, but still carving out a small amount for a treat or something that you've been jonesing for. think it's

Shay Frago (38:02.221)
Yeah.

Ashley (38:27.247)
we're allowed to enjoy our life now and be financially responsible for the future and not even allowed like that is how we do this for the long haul because you know it's like YOLO but also no I might hopefully will live a long life I need a plan for this so you want to enjoy life now and have a great future too.

Shay Frago (38:35.576)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (38:46.666)
Yeah, it's like the YOLO and JOMO or FOMO, whatever it was. Yeah, I love that. I definitely feel like, least personally, that was a big money lesson that I feel like not a lot of people who teach financial literacy would talk about. I feel like when I first started my journey, it was very, very rigid, very structured, very like, if you're not doing this, then you're going to fail.

Ashley (38:49.629)
Yeah. All the mo's.

Shay Frago (39:11.214)
It made me actually hate money even more because I was like well now I feel like I can't enjoy myself and then I feel guilty if I like go out to eat with my friends, but I should be saving this. I feel like that was personally a money lesson that I learned, but I'd be curious to know like what's a money lesson or wealth building tip that you feel isn't discussed honestly enough because it is about creating sustainability with this type of skill set.

Ashley (39:37.777)
Yeah, that's a very good one. I remember when I started my money journey, the big thing was like the fire movement.

which is financial independence, retire early. And there are people that just like wear the same outfit. They have like three outfits. They wear the same thing. They eat beans. And I was like, this is not for me. This is being good at money. This is not my cup of tea. I think mindset things are definitely left out of most personal finance curriculum. And I think that's a shame just because there's...

Shay Frago (39:57.782)
Yeah.

Ashley (40:14.851)
it's so much about mindset. that's where it's, of course, we need to know the objective things and the strategy, like you mentioned, or called it, I like that. But it's, if we don't talk about the behaviors, then we can't change our behavior and our habits. I think also what's not talked about is that we're all starting from different places. And I think that's a very big like,

Shay Frago (40:30.317)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (40:36.206)
Mm.

Ashley (40:39.769)
someone who starts off with student loans versus not. There's 80 million ways that we're starting from different places. And so to just pretend that someone who hits a net worth goal versus someone else that has it at a different level of success or so I think that whole narrative is pretty tired that that's another one I would say.

And then I think something that I'm seeing less and less of, just like the shaming and the berating around your choices. And I think there's so many, I can be on a money club call and we're discussing prioritizing goals. And some people can have the exact, like let's say they have the exact same situation, but.

they value different things, they have a different place they're coming from with their mindset, and they might choose consciously to prioritize four different ways, even though they have the same different, the same exact setup. So I think really allowing the personal and personal finance and the, and understanding like, maybe this makes the most financial sense, but they won't actually do it, or they won't have joy in their life. So they're going to do it this way. And that is actually better, I think is really important.

Shay Frago (41:58.402)
Yeah, I like all of those. It's kind of just reminding us that we're all human beings doing the best we can do, literally in every area of life. And I feel like our society sometimes just makes it really hard to be human, but I love all of those. I know we were kind of talking about enjoying life and being present and all of that stuff. What are some tangible ways people can...

Ashley (42:04.594)
Yeah.

Ashley (42:11.995)
Yes.

Shay Frago (42:26.868)
do that because I feel like it is mindset, it is strategy. And some people are like, I have no idea or how that would even look to be able to enjoy my money, but also still be able to build long term wealth or be financially responsible with my current set of circumstances. And I've always loved that you give a lot of practical tips on how to make frugality fun. Like, how can you tap into summer activities that are free, winter activities that are free, things like that, where it's like people don't need to spend money to

live and feel like they're living a rich life, but what are some lessons or practical steps you can do in terms of that?

Ashley (43:05.127)
So I would say one, this just brought to mind some of our challenges with actually enjoying. So sometimes it's really hard to enjoy things in general. So if someone is having a hard time enjoying, maybe they spend on something and they think that it'll be really fun and then they're really stressing that they spent on it and not enjoying the thing. I actually will have people practice enjoying when things are completely free.

Shay Frago (43:30.744)
Mm.

Ashley (43:31.089)
because I think it's just we're distracted. We have lot going on. Sometimes we're just not present and enjoying. So that is a practice in itself. And then when you add in the money part to really enjoy for some of us, and this is where it gets so personal. I have people who want to practice saving more. And I have people who need to practice spending more because they've gotten really good at saving and they're not enjoying their money at all. So knowing where you stand and almost creating that practice of, OK, I

I put in my budget that I'm going to spend $50 a week on something fun and frivolous for me and making themselves do it and enjoy it. And it might not feel good at first because it is a practice. So I just try to think about what you need and kind of curating it to that. But there are so many strategies. And like you mentioned, there's fun things to do that don't cost money or cost very little money. so also thinking about what

is a thriving life to you? is important about travel is a great example.

we might see this certain person loves luxury hotels and flies first class and goes to most expensive place, you know, but what about travel is important to you? What actually brings you the most joy? And instead of doing all the things or the things that other people do or the things we think we should do, like really prioritizing the part of something that matters to us. So you mentioned getting dinner with your friends, like.

You can do this on your own. You can talk to your friends about it. What about our monthly friend dinner is important to us? Do we love trying a cool new place? Do we love trying a cuisine from another country? Do we just love the quality time? And then through that, if you're looking to save money, you can craft something that honors the parts that are most important about your monthly ritual.

Ashley (45:31.431)
with letting go of the other stuff, which can help you save money. So if it's just quality time, like it could be getting together at each other's houses, or if it's a really about the new fun place, like maybe now we're just gonna get a drink and appetizers or find a really fun, like, or if it's about a specific country, right, I could find a more hole in the wall, less expensive place to try that type of food, you know? So kind of hacking it in a way of,

Shay Frago (45:35.028)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (45:54.723)
Yeah.

Ashley (46:00.337)
getting to the parts that are the juiciest and that make you feel most fulfilled, but not paying for the things that are just kind of not adding value.

Shay Frago (46:08.622)
Yeah, I love that. It's like really pulling the essence of the activity you're doing of like, I'm doing this activity to have this kind of experience, but how can you potentially create it with very little to no money if that's what you need or, you know, if it's the opposite for someone's like, how can I create that in a way that is comfortable for me to spend? So it is two sides of the spectrum there, but I love that you touched upon that.

Ashley (46:30.268)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (46:36.486)
I wanted to circle back because I had meant to ask this, but you talked about how everyone's starting from different places. I know that some of the questions our community was asking was, you know, if you do have student loan debt or credit card debt or you are in that.

debt era, but you're looking to come out of it. What is your take on debt? Because there is a lot of narratives where it's just negative and like if you have student loan debt, then you really shouldn't or if you have credit card debt, then like it's very shameful and kind of evil. And I know it all depends on on goals and whatnot, but I think there's a mindset and a strategy there. And I've always loved your perspective on it from when I've heard you talk about it. So I would love for you to share that with our community.

Ashley (47:19.823)
Yes, that's another tired one is like that if you have credit card debt, you're like a failure. That's like, or like you made mistakes, you know, the so I would say first a reframe that's really important. Debt is just money we owe for something we bought. It's not bad. We're not bad. You know, maybe you have a goal paying it down, but I think taking out a lot of that.

the emotion from it and that shame from it because sometimes when we're punishing ourselves for our debt, we're keeping ourselves in debt as the punishment, right? So thinking about, okay, it's just money I owe for something I bought. It can also be helpful to think about where it came from. Like, is it from education? Is it from a time in my life where I was going through something or it was from lifestyle creep or it was from...

Shay Frago (47:53.815)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (48:13.947)
between jobs, whatever it is to kind of name what it is can be helpful. And I've even gone further and have people write kind of like a love letter to their debt, because it's so much easier to make a plan once we're not feeling that shame, resentment, guilt around our debt. But so I would say that's the reframe, it's okay to have it. But.

Shay Frago (48:23.458)
Yeah.

Ashley (48:38.759)
when you look at like the financial hierarchy, you might decide, okay, this is costing me more. So we wanna look at objectively as possible. So once, and once we kind of write that love letter, we realize where it's from, we realize we're not bad, it's not bad. We can say, okay, so after I have that.

crisis fund, you know, this debt is costing me more than I'd earn in savings or I'd earn in the market. So I want to prioritize paying it down. And I do have a debt inventory tracker that I find can be really helpful and just like laying it all out there and saying, here are all the different ones, either loans or credit cards that I have. Here's their rate. Here's my monthly payment. Here's the payment date. And if it's a credit card, you can put your limit, but then laying that all out and then deciding what to tackle first.

And I'm a fan of paying all your payments, but then putting any extra towards one at a time and really chipping away at it, depending on the strategy you choose.

Shay Frago (49:39.307)
Awesome. I love that. I'd be curious to know too, because Becca and I have talked about this. I've heard it come up in various friend conversations. Those that are in partnership is how your debt, if you decide to get married or come together, like how it affects each other. I feel like that's nuanced. I know you've talked about it a little bit, but what is important for people to know that if

you know, one partner has a lot of debt or even both of you have a lot of debt, but you're coming together in a relationship. How does that impact your credit score? Does it not? Or things like that.

Ashley (50:11.545)
And just one more thing on the debt relationship. So something I've noticed in working with people is how our relationship to debt can be different. And so someone who graduates with a lot of student loans.

one person might really want to aggressively pay it down. They don't want to have debt. They want to get rid of it as soon as possible. But I've also had those who just don't mind debt. They're like, this is what's paid for my education. I'm just going to make my monthly payments. They bought a mansion. They have hundreds of thousands of student loan debt, you know, and they just know that as they make their payments is eventually going to go away. And that got them to be a vet or a doctor or a lawyer, whatever it is. so I think that is also really interesting. And

that we can shift our mindset. And it's totally fine if you still want to pay it off aggressively, and that's a top priority thing for you. But it does get to a point, like let's say if you have a mortgage and it's 3%, right? That's not debt you want to be aggressively paying down. But someone who has that debt is bad mindset might do that at the expense of not investing, right? And that's

Shay Frago (51:02.145)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (51:17.582)
Yeah.

Ashley (51:18.781)
You want them to feel comfortable, but also financially, they're missing out on building wealth. So about combining, I would say whether you both are coming to the relationship with debt or one person has debt, it's important to factor payments in to figuring out what each person can contribute to the whole, to the partnership.

Shay Frago (51:42.062)
you

Ashley (51:44.247)
If let's say sometimes people will just split the bills evenly or split it based on salary, but if one person does have a significant obligation to pay every month and the other doesn't, that can impact how much they're able to put towards the rent and the utilities and all of that. So I like to include that in the conversation.

And I know sometimes there can be nerves around sharing how much debt you have. There's a lot of stats around how a lot of people don't even know what their partner has in debt. One thing that is top of mind just because I just did a workshop on insurance is that if your debt does not

Shay Frago (52:15.895)
Yeah.

Ashley (52:26.033)
go with you when you pass, and there's an amount that your partner would need to handle, and you're married, you can get life insurance, actually, for that purpose, even before. So essentially, to pay off that debt should you pass so that your partner doesn't have to deal with it. But some debts pass with you, so it's just something to look into.

Shay Frago (52:41.908)
Mmm.

Shay Frago (52:50.956)
that's interesting. I feel like that's really good because I think it's a lot of my guy friends actually that have asked questions about this, who are like, no, but if I like marry this person, then I automatically have to, I'm responsible for their debt. And I was like, I don't think that's fully true. I think it's nuanced and specific. So I feel like I wonder if the insurance thing is where conversations that are still important to have, but yeah, that's interesting.

Ashley (53:08.145)
Right.

Ashley (53:15.345)
Yes. Yeah, and it's part, you know, I think we think estate planning is only for rich people, but we all have an estate and it's just what happens with what we own and owe if we were to pass. so.

It's interesting, it's helpful to name beneficiaries on your account. So they go to people that you want them to. If you have children, definitely a will is important to name guardians. It's the only document where you can name guardians for your kids, but definitely, also life insurance to see. For most people, like 99 % of people term life insurance makes the most sense. But for...

Shay Frago (53:52.652)
Mm.

Ashley (53:54.875)
Yeah, so that they don't have to deal. Also, if you buy a home together, it's also helpful, depending on if the other person needs help paying the mortgage to get life insurance.

Shay Frago (54:03.565)
Yeah.

That's awesome. Those are great things to know. I loved this conversation. Thank you so much. And I think for fun, what does living a rich life mean to you?

Ashley (54:18.555)
Yes, a rich life to me is very much about freedom.

Shay Frago (54:25.208)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (54:25.467)
And I think because my first job, I worked so hard and anybody could call me back into the office at any time. Even though I made a great salary, the money was there, but the freedom wasn't. And so it's very interesting when you look at how I've craft my life and I have no boss and no, but I'm able, I think finances and you know, even in that situation, it would have felt less permanent in that job if I had enough money to walk away.

Shay Frago (54:37.549)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (54:43.245)
you

Ashley (54:55.391)
saved or invested. So I think a rich life is freedom and choices. And also, of course, there are always stressors, you know, as your family grows, there's more expenses. And with everything going on the world, the markets moving, that's stressful. But I think to have money be a thing that is not all consuming and that you can enjoy and give

to things that are important to you and to causes that are important to you and to just like enjoy your time is the richest.

Shay Frago (55:31.766)
Yeah, I love that. I definitely resonate with that. Where can people find you, connect with you, anything you want to share in terms of if someone's curious about working with you, etc.

Ashley (55:42.117)
Yes, you can find me at thefiscalfem.com. That's my website. There's a tab called downloads and it has so many free resources like guides on how to have a money party or all the templates we talked about like budgeting, debt pay down, we didn't even talk about sinking funds. That's a really good one. So that would be great. And then on social, I'm the fiscal femme.

Shay Frago (55:59.438)
Yeah.

Ashley (56:06.241)
I'm on Instagram and my DMs. You can always send me a message or a question. And then if you want to work with me, I have a money club that Shae's in. And it's been really magical. It opened in June. It's an incredible group of women. have monthly.

budgeting workshops, investing workshops, there's office hours where people can ask questions and get them answered. I'm in there in the DM is messaging with people and it's just like an incredible community of women going after their money goals so that they can share without being shy about it, without being humble. Like I hit this goal or I'm struggling with this and they're all cheering each other on. It's pretty, it's incredible.

Shay Frago (56:47.744)
Yeah, it's a really awesome community space. know Becca recently joined also because me and Rory were talking about it all the time like, can join! And she's like, okay! So yeah, definitely. Yes, yeah.

Ashley (56:54.269)
Yeah, and the more friends you have join the more fun it is because then you're having these conversations with your friends naturally all the time.

Shay Frago (57:03.502)
Exactly. It's like having that community while you're growing through something makes such a huge difference. So appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom with our community. Is there anything else that feels alive in your heart that we didn't talk about that you'd want to leave?

Ashley (57:17.499)
I would just say if based on everything we talked about, if there's one step you'd want to take after listening to this episode, I really encourage you to just do one thing. And then after you complete that, celebrate it and do another thing next week. so feel free to share with either of us what step you choose to take, but we'd love to hear that you're taking action.

Shay Frago (57:39.756)
Yes, love it. Well, thank you so much. I'm sure we'll have you on again and dive into other topics deeper and we'll catch you all on the next episode. Have a great one.

Ashley (57:49.745)
Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was wonderful.