64. The Good Medicine Road: Finding Sovereignty Through Herbalism, Permaculture, and Witchcraft with Sarah Wu

In this multi-faceted conversation, Rebecca Espinoza chats with Herbalist and Teacher, Sarah Wu, about the Good Medicine Road, as Sarah calls it. On this road, they navigate through the topics of herbalism, permaculture, and witchcraft as a journey home to self through the support of nature. Sarah shares her expansive wisdom and knowledge on spiritual ecology and on the experience of connecting to nature as a form of social justice. With 15 years of being a devoted steward to the Good Medicine Road, Sarah extends insight into what it means to truly connect to the medicine of the plants, not just the commodification of them. 

With eco-communities and living off-grid becoming a trend, Sarah is able to extend her lived experiences with the Vida familia. After having lived in an an eco-community for years and having built her home off-grid in the Costa Rican jungle, Sarah discusses the romanticized view of living off the grid versus the reality of personal accountability and laborious work involved. 

This conversation is meant to be a reminder on the the importance of self-sovereignty, community, and the interconnectedness of nature, and advocating for a deeper understanding of our relationship with the earth and each other. Overall, it's an ode to hope in a world that may seem like it's collapsing all around us. 

Connect With Sarah!

https://villagewitch.org

Instagram.com/sarahwu.villagewitch.original

https://villagewitch.org/course-offerings/herbalistsandalchemists/

https://villagewitch.org/together/

Additional Resources:

Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer

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Chapters

• 2:53 The Good Medicine Road and Relearning Skills
• 5:53 Navigating Modern Challenges and Heartfelt Reflections
• 9:01 Cultural Identity and Belonging
• 11:57 Gentrification and Community Living
• 15:02 Building a Life Off-Grid
• 18:00 The Realities of Living Off-Grid
• 26:02 Sustainable Living: Composting and Waste Management
• 32:01 The Romanticism of Off-Grid Living vs. Reality
• 32:50 Community Living: The Complexities of Co-Housing
• 47:12 Herbalism and Spiritual Ecology: A Personal Journey
• 56:29 Herbalism: A Path to Self-Sovereignty
• 1:00:42 Permaculture: Philosophy and Community Sovereignty
• 1:03:05 Witchcraft as a Form of Social Justice
• 1:14:20 Embracing Multifaceted Identities

Transcript

Rebecca Espinoza (00:01.012)
Sarah, welcome to Vida! I'm so grateful to have you here.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (00:03.923)
Thank you so much, Rebecca, for having me and thank you to everyone who's listening to and supporting this project. Beautiful Vida podcast.

Rebecca Espinoza (00:14.722)
Yes, thank you. I'm stoked to have you here just because, I mean, I was just sharing this. You were one of my OG expanders. I'm not even kidding when I started walking this, you know, this green witch path or, you know, this path of being more connected to nature. I remember I saw you on down to earth and that's how I saw you. And I was like,

I remember I rewinded that part and I was like, wait, who is this woman? I love what she's talking about. I love her energy. And I just, remember just being thinking about like, I'm going to learn from her. And that's what happened. I looked you up, I found your Instagram and I was like, yeah, she's someone I'm going to, I'm going to learn from. And there's so many reasons why I just felt drawn to you, like your, your energy, your way of teaching. Once I started just learning a little bit about you.

when I finally got to take your permaculture course till this day. It's that one point in my life that shifted everything for me. It's one of those marker points and I still think about it and it's still one of the biggest influences it's had on me and the reason I am living the way I'm living and the visions that I have for my future. That course had a lot to do with it and I'm still expanding my education and I still know that you're going to be a teacher of mine for

so many more years on this planet in this lifetime, maybe the next too So I'm just really grateful to be having you here because you have a wealth of wisdom. Every time I hear you speak, just like, she doesn't need to stop. want to hear her share more.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (02:00.656)
Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah, it was a beautiful course for those of you listening. is called Permaculture for the Herbalists Path. And it's a course in regenerative herbalism that Rebecca took. It's a 200-hour training I developed with a friend of mine named Lala Palmieri, who's a herbalist in Guatemala, in Guatemala City. And it's a beautiful course because it's all about the whole

Rebecca Espinoza (02:20.856)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (02:26.543)
alchemical proverb, right, of as within, so without, and really learning about the correspondences between ecosystems and bio regions and our human body and our human culture, you know, and I've been watching your work all these years since you've taken, I think it was 20, was it 2021 or 2020? No.

Rebecca Espinoza (02:44.174)
It was 2021. It was like post pandemic a bit because we were able to travel.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (02:47.565)
Yeah, that's right. The years getting fuzzier. But yeah, you know, was a big year also, because so much of us were really trying to kind of figure out like, okay, we really have to learn a lot of new skills right now. And the new skills are actually a lot of the old skills. And re-learning that and it was actually through the pandemic where I was just like, kind of like,

Rebecca Espinoza (02:53.528)
I know.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:11.115)
Yes!

Sarah Wu (she/her) (03:17.592)
patting myself on the back like good job Sarah for sticking to the path. I call it the good medicine road.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:20.386)
Yeah. And gosh, the good medicine road, that's what I was trying to remember, because you would always say that. And I was saying the Greenwich path, but the good medicine road, that they go hand in hand. There's so much there because you know that piece about the relearning. I remember having that light bulb moment when I was there and I was thinking about there is so much I don't know.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (03:27.692)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (03:31.938)
Thanks, also. Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (03:40.641)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:49.816)
when it comes to feeling capable for myself to know if, I mean, the pandemic was a perfect example, right? Like people were freaking out because what if the resources weren't available anymore? What if the government can't support you? What are you going to do? And in the city, that chaos was very much felt. And I remember being in Guatemala with you and with our community there and...

Sarah Wu (she/her) (03:58.477)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (04:11.401)
Brown.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:17.688)
I think for so many of us that became a sanctuary and it became a moment to redirect our abilities and our strengths and relearn them or learn them and touch into them. And like I said, I think what was really hard for me when I came back, was like, I actually had to reintegrate myself back into this way of living.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (04:33.952)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:47.532)
And that was really hard for me. And we're gonna get into a lot of that in a bit, because you've made big switches in your life and you've created a path for yourself. I remember actually during Guatemala, I think it was the final night for plant prom, we did that beautiful ceremony for you and Lala where we just honored the path that you walked.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (04:49.975)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (05:12.907)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:14.35)
And it was so beautiful to be able to honor you, teachers, and therefore honor the teachers also that taught you as well.

because you all were deep in, you know, in the weeds kind of like hacking it out, clearing a path for all of us to be able to walk that and kind of bring more clarity around these type of teachings. And you've created a really beautiful life for yourself from what I've seen. And I'm sure of course it's come with so many challenges as well, because again, you were creating the path. Like no one really paved it out for you. You did it for yourself.

And you're in Costa Rica right now and you're living on this beautiful home that you've built. And I'm excited to share about that, but I just wanted to honor you for that because again, I watch you and I'm just like, damn, Sarah's like a true expander for me.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (06:10.151)
My face hurts from smiling. I love that. That's my beauty hack.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:15.584)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Sarah. Dude, Sarah, your your skin is beautiful, too, by the way.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (06:23.497)
Thank you.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:24.302)
if that's your maniac. Yeah. And before we get into the deep juicy stuff, let's just get into some of like a little bit of the basics. Let's just start off by, you know, connecting to the heart. esta tu corazon? How's your heart doing today?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (06:38.377)
Yeah, it's these times have been really really hard. I'll admit I have a little bit of an addiction to the news. I actually do stop my subscription recently as I was just spending like hours a night reading and I love to read but I was like

Rebecca Espinoza (06:44.91)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:00.673)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:05.068)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (07:07.951)
reading the news before bed. And it's been really hard, you know, like watching the state of the world and watching how people are feeling. And I've always actually had the sentiment that the biggest disease affecting the world is apathy. It's not cancer, it's not diabetes. It's like none of that. It's just that people don't care enough about each other, about their home planet Earth where they live.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:29.858)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:35.31)
planet.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (07:36.334)
animals, about plants, about it all, you know. And so my corazón is un poco como, you know, it's like super sensitive right now because I, it's really tender. I have this like, I don't know, I, for those of you who know this kind of stuff, but I have a stellium in Pisces and a stellium in Libra. And so I'm just like hyper sensitive and very much aware, keenly aware of other people's situations, even people I find repulsive.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:46.606)
tender.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:58.616)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (08:06.458)
you know, like I can look at like a neo-Nazi and I'm like, in my mind, why are they like that? Who told them? Who hurt them? You know, like I'm always, who didn't love them? Who told them they were better than or less than, you know, and like, where does that come from? I'm like constantly questioning that. And so yeah, my heart's really tender right now because there's like that of the global situation. And then there's also just the realities of being an immigrant here in Costa Rica and

Rebecca Espinoza (08:15.064)
Like who didn't love them? Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:27.821)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (08:35.879)
a lot of, and very naturalized. had my quinceanera in December of this last year, in 2012. I know it was really big, and it's also really intense because as we've seen, like, globally, there's ultra-nationalism, like, everywhere, and it's even happening here in this country. And this country used to be a place where, like, regular folks could easily make a living in Costa Rica. Also had a really

Rebecca Espinoza (08:42.233)
my gosh.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:54.584)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:01.804)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (09:04.42)
you know, pretty good lifestyle. And now it's just like the economic divide is, you know, we talk about gentrification, like it's happening here. And I keep thinking about like my role in that. And like, is it right for me to be here? And then where do I go? And being somebody who's, you know, mixed, ethnic background, like I don't have one place to go back to. know, and so it's, there's a lot that's been spinning around in my mind and my heart. And I'm just trying to just try to stay.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:13.955)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:22.062)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (09:34.638)
One of my tattoos is this little heart with an arrow here and my pointer finger and it's like lead with love. And that's something that I'm always like thinking about like, okay, how can I just like keep, keep being in right relationship? And that's some of the big teachings. And I'm sure you've probably read this book and maybe some of you listening to Braiding Sweetgrass. She talks a lot about like right relationship with with land and like the law of reciprocity. And so I'm just like in that constantly right now.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:38.876)
it's beautiful.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:52.546)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (10:04.131)
or not.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:04.193)
And yeah, thank you for sharing that and for just being honest about the realities that come with, you know, being in the modern world, but also wanting to be connected to nature and wanting to have kind of, you know, I think a lot of modern day people are who want to live in that way.

kind of are also aware, because I'm the same way where I'm just like, I want to move to a certain part of Mexico to build on land and to do these things. And Mexico City alone is already again, the economic disparity is very present. And again, it's very hard for people who are originally from Mexico to make a living there now because of gentrification and, you know, colonialism, basically. And it's hard for me, similar, because I'm a woman of color. I'm Mexican. I'm mixed race too.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (10:46.2)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (10:50.339)
very much.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:58.158)
For me to wonder like, am I part of the problem just because I do want a bit of a better life and to build a better life for my future generations and for communities and it's something, how do you grapple with that? How do you move through that?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (11:10.263)
Yeah, yeah, it comes up for me a lot. know, like I, I mean, the whole concept of gentrification, you know, like people are really, you know, there's a lot of like race consciousness right now, which I think is important because so many people have been harmed because of that, you know, and I was actually invited into a BIPOC herbalism conference last year and I was talking to

the founder of it, Abril Donahue, who is an amazing Black herbalist. She's from like the Georgia area. And I was like, I don't know if I belong here. I don't know. And it's always been the question. I don't know if I belong. You know, it's like in the US where we grow up, we have to check those boxes on every state test, right? I mean, that's that's systematic racism.

Rebecca Espinoza (11:57.228)
You still have to check those boxes when you apply to a job. So when I'm applying to jobs right now, that is still a thing. It's not just like, they literally ask you, are you Latin Hispanic? And like, what else are you? It's insane.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (12:10.305)
That's straight up systemic racism, right?

Rebecca Espinoza (12:13.774)
People will say like, oh, it's affirmative action to give more balance to like, blah, blah, blah, really, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (12:19.328)
I mean, we know what it And I remember as a child, I would always check the other box. And so even being invited into the BIPOC Herbalism Conference, I was like feeling like other. And Abril said to me, she was like, you do belong here. That's why I invited you here. She's like, so don't make yourself feel like an outsider, you know? And I think that that's something that's really interesting for a lot of us to try to grapple with, and especially as an herbalist, because

The plants in the forest are my guide, you know, and every time I'm like feeling lost, I'm like, what would the forest do? And the forest in itself is perfect. you know, it has things like predators and parasites that I'm turning over in my brain too, trying to understand that role as it reflected in human society. But the plants in the forest actually are borderless. don't, they know there are plants have no borders, animals.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:03.01)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:12.972)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (13:17.374)
have no borders, fungi have no borders, they're territorial, right? And those territories are fluid based on sun, the rain, nutrients, and they're constantly moving. And this whole concept of borders and ownership and the race consciousness that's out there, it's so human, you know, so human, and it's created to divide and it's created to say mine and yours, haves and have nots.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:36.588)
It is.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (13:45.471)
you know, class, all of these things. It's like, for me, it just feels so clear. I'm like, how can we, I don't even know if we'll ever be able to dissolve this in our lifetime, you know? And when we look at the things like ultra-nationalism and people being rounded up and shipped out and all of the anger of immigrants, whether it's gringos coming into Latin America or it's Latinos going into North America, because that's like the big thing that we're dealing with.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:13.922)
Yep, right now, yep.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (14:15.538)
right now, know, where it's like gringo go home, like go.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:18.958)
Yeah, when Trump is changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America. Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (14:24.255)
the most ridiculous thing in the world. Yeah, right. And so it's like, I'm struggling with this concept because plants have no borders. And actually, live my community that I live in, we don't have individual land ownership, like bought it all together, like the whole parcel, which is now forest, like we call it taquatal, which is, refers to secondary regrowth.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:38.2)
Come.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:43.757)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (14:51.198)
So the whole thing was deforested and it had cattle on it, you know, for, don't know how many generations they were doing cattle farming. A lot of, you know, Latin America, there's a lot of cowboys, you know, with the cattle. And then the cattle were removed from this land mostly like in the late seventies. And so now the forest here is like 50 years old and it's giant, it's forest, not Takwatal anymore. But it meant pioneering. And when we...

Rebecca Espinoza (15:02.083)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (15:18.718)
got on this land 17 years ago, the whole idea was it was friends. I actually wasn't a part of the original group, but it was friends who were, you know, in burners forever, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s, who decided to stop putting their money into burning it down. Yeah. And so, you know, they acquired this land and all of our Costa Rican members

Rebecca Espinoza (15:33.816)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (15:45.437)
it's about 40 % Costa Rican in our community, all of our Costa Rican members actually got their land for free, right? And there were various types of like work exchange, like some, and even some of the gringos got their land for free. You know, the ones who are pioneering, the ones who kind of chopped the trails, the ones who put the first water system in, the ones who cut the first like road into the property, you know, and

Rebecca Espinoza (15:53.422)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:00.014)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:04.395)
I got it.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:12.366)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (16:12.924)
were actually held as a collective, which is now mostly forest, a total of 35 hectares, which is about 80 acres. And within that 80 acres, only 15 % is actually dedicated to homes. So it's very different from a lot of other developments that's happening in Costa Rica right now, which is why people are also so upset, is that it's just like clear cutting protected trees and just popping in.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:29.016)
Wow, okay, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (16:41.403)
multi-million dollar homes in condos, which makes it very unattainable for many different people. know, where we're in our little community, it's been very organic. Like we operate on a very meager operational budget every year. You know, like our dues originally were only $500 a year. So it was like, you know, $15,000 to try to maintain the whole acres and hire people and, know, to help and to pay

Rebecca Espinoza (16:43.725)
Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:02.124)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (17:10.171)
some of the community members who are working like I'm on the administration team the last two years, you know, so I get a very small salary from the community, very small, you know. And now, you know, we finally increased for like $1,000 a year, you know, and which is very manageable, you know, for people to afford and like here, our houses are really cute and very hand sculpted and very humble, you know, and really neat.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:13.538)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:24.14)
Yeah... Yeah... Definitely.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:32.366)
They're beautiful. Yeah. They have so much character. They're so beautiful. I remember seeing the process of you building it and I was, when I met you, think you were, that's, you were starting it and.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (17:43.29)
I was in the final stretches of like trying to get and it was it was a trip like getting building my house because I I built I divorced like the reason I came to Costa Rica was for love. You know, my husband, my first husband, he had lived down here since 1995 and

Rebecca Espinoza (17:51.234)
Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:00.0)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I remember, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (18:11.321)
at a farm called Punta Mona, is now probably will never be opened again, it's southern Caribbean. But I moved, I first came here in 2021 studying tropical ecology and then came back for love, you know, for him. And we made our life here. And then, you know, when we broke up, I, part of like our division of our assets was I got my little parcel for my share, my share really here in Tacotá.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:13.282)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:17.112)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:35.416)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (18:39.532)
which was like such a blessing because I actually after my divorce, I was in like crazy amounts of debt. Like it was really hard, you know, like to try to figure things out. And I was very lucky to have some assets, I, well, an energetic asset where I helped to found a festival which had its own things happening too with that. But I sold my shares. I had an opportunity to sell my shares.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:00.014)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (19:08.18)
of it during the pandemic and I actually sold them for crypto. And then I kept it out of the banks and which felt really good. And then I liquidated it and I just built my house and I paid off all my debts, which was huge, you know, amazing. And so, yeah, so I'm in this sweet little community here where in my house and I have my my current beloved, my husband, Giovanni. Yeah. And, you know, we live off the grid.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:20.16)
Incredible, my god.

That's amazing.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:33.74)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (19:37.053)
here. There are grid networks close and you know, but I am off the grid and it's it's definitely a thing. You know, I see a lot of people wanting to come down here and I'm following these chats and these chats are so ridiculous. Like how's the bugs? You know, like, how do I get rid of the ants? And it's just like, don't you like the ants that they are like, exponentially more

Rebecca Espinoza (19:56.647)
no, no.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (20:04.146)
than humankind in the world and the purpose is not to like eradicate the ants from your household, you know, and so I've been actually really encouraging people like, or they complain about the mold and it's like, you know, we're at four degrees off the equator, like, you know, if you don't like these things, then maybe you shouldn't come here. You know, people see these like images in the green and it's just like, man, it's still really hard.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:08.727)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:22.67)
Don't go there. Don't go there.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:29.12)
Exactly, exactly.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (20:33.632)
hard, you know, and it's not paradise. Paradise is what you make of it, right? And you could have paradise in, you know, in LA, you could find your paradise. It's like you can find that anywhere. And so often people ask me like, I don't know where I should live. I don't know where I should go. And I really tell people like get elemental with it, like go into earth, fire, water, like where is your body? What food do you like to eat? Where do you feel powerful in your body strong?

Rebecca Espinoza (20:50.35)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:56.942)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (21:03.765)
mentally air, like where are, you know, like you're mentally stimulated where you're getting an ability to share yourself, you know, a way like where the air elements also like, you know, politics and religion, like, does that mesh with you? You know, like for me in Costa Rica, part of the air element that's so important to me is that we don't fund war, have no arm

Rebecca Espinoza (21:12.814)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:26.53)
Yeah, yeah I remember you told me that.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (21:28.776)
Yeah, like my taxes that I pay here don't bomb other countries, know, through socialized health care and school systems. And obviously things are not perfect, but it's like I'm not bombing other countries with my taxes, you know, and then, you know, fire element, like where do you feel really inspired and motivated to get out of bed and create, right? And then water element is like, how is your emotional body doing?

Rebecca Espinoza (21:33.08)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:43.214)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:56.974)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (21:57.844)
within all of this. so first, many folks as we're trying to, if you have the privilege to move and to relocate, I think that it's important to think about it that way in particular. And then also like culturally, like am I able to naturalize? Do I speak the language? Like when I moved to Costa Rica, I didn't speak Spanish and I put myself, like I worked in the kitchen, I would run all my errands. I like, really made an effort to learn the language and I see a lot

Rebecca Espinoza (21:59.65)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:10.766)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:16.161)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:26.926)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (22:27.379)
folks come now into the country and it's just like, you know, English bubbles everywhere and people don't speak Spanish. And it's like, sure, it is the language of the colonizer also, but it is the language now of the people of this place. predominantly. Yeah. And so people don't make the strong effort to learn language. And it's like, well, how are you really going to naturalize? How you going learn culture? How are you going to understand?

Rebecca Espinoza (22:38.296)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:42.158)
predominantly.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:51.872)
Exactly.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (22:52.7)
how to even work your way through bureaucracies of living in a place if you can't speak the language, you know?

Rebecca Espinoza (22:59.278)
Exactly. Oh my gosh, think there's so much there. And thank you for sharing all of that. I think that alone is so helpful for people to come into terms if like, why do I wanna go where I wanna go? Because again, and we can get into this a little bit because you touched on eco communities a bit. You talked about, you live in your community right now.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (23:11.986)
Really?

Rebecca Espinoza (23:23.65)
You talked about living off grid and yes, these are things that people talk about living because doing because it's a trend on Instagram and it's like you're in these beautiful natural locations. But like you said, the difference, the way you did it, working with nature a bit more and not trying to disrupt it as much versus building these million dollar, multi-million dollar homes that are completely eradicating a lot of the ecosystems and bulldozing them there. And let's talk a little bit about

if you can share the realities of what it is to move into a location where I guess if you're removing yourself a bit off the matrix, which fully nowadays, I don't think you can fully disconnect from the matrix because of technology, social media, like you're plugged in, especially if you're an online entrepreneur and business owner, which...

This is the funny thing, sometimes because you are an online business entrepreneur, it does give you the luxury to go in, be like, I'm going to go and build a separate life, not as connected to the matrix, but still plugged in a little bit. So it's a funny place to be. But if you can share a little bit about these realities of what it means to actually go and do this.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (24:40.528)
I mean, so one of the big things living off grid is that you have to be prepared to literally shovel shit. Like, what are you gonna do with your own human waste? Because when you're on the grid, you poop, you flush, where's it go? Into the ocean, into the river, into the septic system, into the municipal system. A lot of people don't even think about that. And that's number one.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:51.926)
Yes!

Rebecca Espinoza (24:58.03)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (25:08.843)
is what is happening to my waste. And so living off grid, I'm very passionate about compost toilets. I love not wasting clean water. Like it's such a precious resource. Like why put shit in it? Like it's so hard to purify once there's, that's, you know, damaged that way. And there are strategies, you know, there's a lot of different ecosystem strategies, you know, but it takes work and you have to pay attention and study.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:15.96)
Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:26.35)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (25:38.169)
how to do it, you know, like you can't just like design a bio nest. It's like you have to like, look, okay, what types of plants do I need? How many different steps of filtration, et cetera, et to make sure that I'm not damaging the water shed or damaging the water table, I should say. So that's why I love compost toilets because they're what we call closed loop systems. So everything that goes in my mouth is actually making soil, which is another

Rebecca Espinoza (25:52.504)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:02.936)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (26:07.678)
know, endangered substance on planet Earth. And so I'm making soil from my human waste. But what that means is that you got to clean it out. You got to shovel shit. You got to be ready to clean out the compost bin and it could be little buckets to big chambers like I have. So we do it twice a year. And yeah, because it's a big enough chamber. I'm in a two person household. We don't have children, you know, so.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:16.462)
you

Rebecca Espinoza (26:29.205)
Okay.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (26:36.011)
And I have another compost toilet outside for for gas. And it's like, when mom comes to visit, she uses whatever but you know, it's like it's designed for a two person household. the one chamber, we clean it out every six months. And it's like, that's real. You know, you have to be prepared to deal with your own waste. And then the other thing is like trash, you don't just like put it on the street once a day or once a week in the bin and it just

Rebecca Espinoza (26:40.642)
Bye.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:45.71)
Okay.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (27:02.4)
goes away. It's like I have to like really pay attention to my trash. And okay, now I've got to put it in my car. I got to drive it down the road to get sent away. But I want to minimize that, right? Like, can I try to take out trash just once a month and make it one bag, you know, versus people have like bags of trash every week, you know, or the compost waste that comes out of your kitchen, and then the water.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:10.87)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:21.09)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (27:29.598)
how are you going to get water to your space? And then where does it go? Right? So like our water, we had a, had, still have a concession on our Creek, which was a huge amount of work. It's still a huge amount of work for our community. being, like I said, we have a very meager operational budget. So was like, you know, we had to get it from the Creek and then work with gravity and strategically, you know, get it into some tanks and invest in the tanks. And then a few years ago we,

Rebecca Espinoza (27:33.699)
Yep.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (27:56.843)
raised a bunch of money in our community, almost $70,000 between 25 people that we put into the development of our big water tank, like huge water tank. And then we also, within that $70,000, we also dug a well. And our well ended up being like a few hundred feet deep, so it was very expensive because we're on a mountain.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:01.261)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:08.588)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:20.781)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (28:21.259)
It's like all this infrastructure that we had to invest in now to get our water. And now we're finally redoing some of our lines to be more secure because, you know, we get dry season here. A lot of you can probably hear the cicadas in the background in the dry season, but it's like the animals are seeking water too. And so they would chew through the lines. So then it's like walking the land to find the lines because, you know, to bury them is a lot of work. Again, out there shoveling and if you hit rock.

It's hard, then it's a pitchfork and you know, it's not always the direct line. So a lot of our lines were laid on top of the soil. So we could easily follow them and also find leaks, you know. So that's like constant maintenance right there of just getting water into your home when you're off grid. Whereas like in municipal systems, you know, they're all laid for you. And so it's just not like calling up the water company and getting your meter and then getting tapped in, right? And then

Rebecca Espinoza (29:11.758)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:15.883)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (29:19.088)
what do do with what comes out? Right? In permaculture, you probably remember this, it's all inputs and outputs, what comes in the system, what goes out. And so the output then is now what do I do with the water from my washing machine, from my shower, from my sink, you know, and how do I distribute that back out? And so, you know, I have two different gray water systems, one that is from like the bathroom, so shower, sink, and the laundry machine. And then another one that comes from the kitchen.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:24.342)
outputs, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:39.182)
Okay.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (29:46.353)
and they go into gray water system gardens, you know, so then it's like breaking rock and digging holes and building walls and bringing in smaller like last day, like a gravel and sand and then putting on the soil and planting the plants, you know, and so there's, there's a lot, know, like living off the grid can seem really romantic and it is, I love living with the ecosystem. absolutely love it. And it's not

Rebecca Espinoza (29:58.968)
Mmm... For the... mm-hmm...

Sarah Wu (she/her) (30:14.778)
easy breezy, you know, and you have to really like know what to do. And so I really recommend anyone, anyone who's like off grid curious, you should take a permaculture course because really it's your toolbox for understanding environmental systems and how to create the basics of rain catchment and water filtration and gray water systems and compost.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:27.087)
yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:33.454)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (30:40.744)
basics, you know, and of course there's nuance to different bio regions, but it is the foundation, you know, for learning these things that our ancestors knew, you know, they knew all that stuff. It is, it's just like, you know, these few handfuls, maybe now of generations that have just been like so unplugged from it, you know.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:53.7)
my gosh.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:04.918)
And you know, I think I got a real, it's true. There's such a big, like a romantic perspective on this because people see the final products. They see the final products of like, for example, when I saw your house, but I got to see some of the process that you would share online. So I knew there was like challenges and you would share it during the permaculture course as well. But it's not, it's a lot of.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (31:14.724)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:30.926)
personal accountability and responsibility for your basically your existence because if you want to live on this earth and with the earth you're personally responsible with For how you do it and it's no longer just like yeah, you put your trash outs. We're in a world of convenience now and that has stripped us away from I think one I think really working for the life that we really want to create that is like rooted and I think

Sarah Wu (she/her) (31:49.488)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:01.336)
just deep connection, because I think the apathy piece is very true. And that level of convenience, I think, has been a part of ripping us away from apathy, because nowadays, to me, sometimes nature feels like luxury. And that's really sad because of the world that we live in.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (32:02.79)
Mmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (32:18.158)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:23.13)
And so thank you for sharing those truths around that. For me, I'm definitely, I'm wanting to re-immersed myself in permaculture again, and I have been, and take another course because I don't want to lose the connection to that and the truths that come with it and the bigger vision that I have. thank you for sharing that. And so you mentioned, you you were with your community doing all of this. You live in a community. You were living in...

originally what brought you to Costa Rica, were in also living in an eco community. That has also become a big buzzword, eco community. What was your experience with being involved in the different probably waves of these eco communities? Because I think you got you got started in kind of early and

Sarah Wu (she/her) (33:12.261)
Yeah, yeah, I started living in community in 2009. mean, humans are complicated, right? It's always for all of like the hard work of the land, humans are way harder to deal with. And so I was living in a community that was a lot of co-living, you know, like people didn't have a lot of private space. I was

Rebecca Espinoza (33:28.878)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:38.252)
wow, okay.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (33:39.268)
privileged in that community because my partner was the owner. He was the benevolent dictator of it, right? was like an education retreat center. So, and a lot of the staff, and I really was the one that pushed this, was that like, people are living and working here long-term, they have to have private housing. Because what I found, you know, and I shared a kitchen with folks from, you know, and I lived there full-time for five years and I was involved for 10.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:47.736)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:03.608)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (34:08.867)
But my full-time living there, I shared a kitchen the whole time. And that was hard because sometimes you just want a snack and you don't want to share it with everybody. You know, like you're gonna eat your snack and hide a little bit. It's like this obligation if you're gonna cook something, it has to be for everyone. And there is always, there's always dramas around food in particular. Like food is one of those things that is very emotional for people.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:09.134)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:22.126)
You

Rebecca Espinoza (34:25.624)
I can't breath. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:38.286)
you

Sarah Wu (she/her) (34:38.85)
on all the spectrum of severity from don't eat my snack to eating disorders, right? Like there's so much. And then of course, I'm here in Costa Rica, which is like a new age capital. So you've got all these different dietary needs all the time. And that actually would sometimes become really, it would tip the scales of justice. So, you know, where we're cooking for everyone and we want everyone to have a fair plate of food.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:46.083)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:54.189)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (35:06.625)
the raw fruitarian comes in and just mows down all the bananas. And so no one gets a banana because they're starving all the time. know, so there was a lot, you know, that would it would come up. And then there is like different things about roles and responsibilities and how how we manage, you know, the type of work that needs to get done, what are priorities, all of

All of that, you know, and even so, like I said, I've been in community now for 15 years and I'm still dealing with different dramas, you know, that come up. And with that, you know, like what was really important for me also with living in community was my private space. And when I left co-living, I need, I was very clear. like, I need my own kitchen. I need my own bathroom. I need my own house.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:43.874)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (36:02.92)
You know, and it doesn't have to be that I don't want to be in community. It just means like, I can't be taking care of everyone else's dietary needs. I can't, I need to be able to feel bad one day and just be like, it's okay if I don't see anybody, I don't have to like justify why I can't show up right now. You know, and when was lot of co-housing, was like, if someone felt sick, it was almost like, are they really sick or they just don't want to work? You know, and you're kind of like.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:03.949)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:10.582)
Yes, yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:23.423)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:29.975)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (36:32.507)
Seriously, like I can't just have cramps and be left alone for a day and a half without being obligated to do all my community chores, you know? So I got over it really fast of like of that type of co-living. I could do it, you know, and especially because I really advocated for people who were in leadership to have personal housing because a lot of the volunteers, you know, they would have been more co-housing because they would stay for a month or they would stay

Rebecca Espinoza (36:36.119)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:00.696)
Right.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (37:01.193)
two months, and it was like novel to co-live together. like, they're holding a lot of space and responsibility. was like, you had to be able to retreat to your space. Yeah, so that was a big, big lesson. And so I do, and I know a lot of people who do co-housing, know, urban co-housing. Totally, and it's how people can afford to live.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:05.731)
Hmm

Rebecca Espinoza (37:12.354)
Yeah, of course. Of course.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:21.388)
Yeah, yeah, it's a thing out here in LA.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:27.618)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (37:28.258)
and how people, even our house, like I married an Italian, so you now we're doing this like transatlantic thing and the only way he could buy his house was with a friend, you know? And so we're two couples that co-live in a house right now and it is like there's certain things, I absolutely love them and I can't live with them in winter because they smoke cigarettes. Exactly, so in the summertime, they're Italians, it's like all Europeans still smoke cigarettes.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:35.362)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:55.714)
Yep. Yep.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (37:57.393)
You know, in the summer it's fine because it's like outdoor, you know, but in winter, you know, it's their house. They can also do what they want with it. So I'd rather just not even engage in the drama and I spend winter out, you know. So it's like there's all types of dramas that can come up when we're in our social situations, you know, and a lot of it does stem from ego.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:00.981)
outside.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:06.38)
Yeah, of course.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:21.88)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (38:27.153)
one. I always see it in the guys in particular. I'm not even going to try to be... Yeah, it's ridiculous. And even when I was a part of other projects I've been a part of, a lot of times it is like dude drama that comes up.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:29.582)
Hehehe.

Who's gonna alpha?

Rebecca Espinoza (38:39.64)
Mmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:44.096)
That is so funny because we always get women always get crap for being like so catty and like dramatic.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (38:49.597)
No, women for me, and I'm gender binary-ing here, so, you know, like don't want to stick to that, but like if we're going to look energetically at the binaries of that, is that yeah, there is something about like that masculine archetype, which is very much like I need to be the leader, I'm right, I'm the difference, you know, where historically, you know, women are so much more collaborative.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:11.682)
Ripe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:19.958)
We are, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (39:20.476)
And this goes way back into prehistory, you know, on how collaborative women are, because we were about the survival of the species, you know, and our territories, we didn't really have them, because we need to make sure that everyone from our elders to our babies could make it through. so, you know, and I do notice that when women are in leadership roles, it can be, of course, of course, there are

Rebecca Espinoza (39:25.368)
Hmm?

Rebecca Espinoza (39:40.256)
Exactly.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (39:50.603)
dramas amongst us too. Personality conflicts and philosophical conflicts and different styles of working, but we do have tendency to be much more collaborative.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:51.874)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:59.352)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:03.758)
Mm-hmm, of course. you know, it was like the women, when the men would go out and hunt, it's like the women would stay back behind to take care of the children, to go pick the, like the food, the stool was growing in season, and we would be taking care of each other's children and just cooking for each other and supporting each other in that way is very communal. And I'm curious, like, do you think that this

Sarah Wu (she/her) (40:23.835)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:30.331)
know, version of humans today have forgotten how to be in community.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (40:35.546)
I yeah, I do. Because, I mean, we all grew up, or at least I remember growing up, so, you know, as a teenager in 90s. And I remember on TV, always seeing these commercials about like the US Army and the Army of One, right? Army of One. And then it was always that American dream, right? Your individual house, your car, your fence, your this, your that, right?

Rebecca Espinoza (40:58.936)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (41:05.463)
It's a lot of that culture of individualism, in particular, think, has really, and radical independence, which I'll say has also really affected the feminist movement, right? When you look at the, you know, the girl boss and, you know, the woman in charge and stuff, mean,

Rebecca Espinoza (41:15.896)
Yeah

Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (41:25.26)
gosh, we've talked so much about that on here.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (41:28.017)
Yeah, I really struggle with it because it's like, well, that's actually just pushing us into radical independence, which actually tears us away from the soul of the world. You know, there's this away from each other, it tears us away from community and it leads us into, it's just me and I'm just fighting for myself. can and yeah, you can still be a solo person and work alone and do things. But it's a mind frame. Right. And it's a philosophy pretty much of

this radical independence, which I think is, yeah, like we don't know how to be in community because of it. So, and then when we get into community, even like the slightest little bump, we're like, I'm out, I'm done, right?

Rebecca Espinoza (42:10.134)
Yes, and you know what, I think that's also common in just romantic relationships now. I think people have just forgotten how to be in relation because that's also in romantic relationships, at least in my experience with dating and so many of these modern day people, women, because I mostly talk to women. If there's like a problem, you're just like, OK, I'm done. like a lot of it's a lot of the men, too. It's just like, OK, that's red flag. We're done. We're leaving. It's just like that is not how you navigate.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (42:18.617)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (42:34.099)
up.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:39.426)
relationships, how can you coexist with, just like you said, nature? Nature is all about relationship.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (42:44.982)
Yeah, well.

It's all about relationship, exactly. And there's tension points. I had, there was some conflict in a project I was working on recently and we ended up dissolving because there were some tensions that were just too much. And it wasn't just a red flag. was like, there was a series of talks and trying to see, we make this work? Mindful separation, right? It wasn't just like done, cut it, you know.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:52.142)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:08.524)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (43:15.786)
And I think what's really important is to remember tension points are, it's kind of like the metaphor of like the loom or weaving or sewing. If any of you do that or knitting, right? It's like when things are really loose and there's no tension, it actually falls apart really easily. It's a beautiful like gauzy thing. It's like you snag it. Exactly, exactly. But when there's some tension, it actually weaves the fabric closer together.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:24.462)
Mmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:32.951)
Mm-hmm.

That's the spider, that's with the web, that's with the spider.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (43:46.045)
And it's critical for the strength of the fabric to be strong and to be resilient and to last, you know? And so I think it is through tension points is how we can really work in relating. And with that, know, there's also, and permaculture teaches this through the concept of social permaculture with our zones, where not everyone is in your zone zero and zone one.

or your zone too, but then it takes the mindfulness to say, the relationship right now, the tensions maybe are starting to cause us harm, right? Because if things get too tense, also it's like wrapping a poultice or too tight, you know, it cuts off the circulation, it cuts off vital force. And so there's a sweet point in the tension, right? And so it does become that kind of mindfulness of saying like, hey, I need space.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:28.216)
circulation.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:32.076)
Mm-hmm. I love that connection.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (44:40.788)
and you're not in my zone one or my zone two, my tightest folks anymore. And actually with one of my best friends recently, really, yeah, we were just having a lot of little things coming up that were like tension points that didn't feel good for either of us. And so we said, let's take some space. We need space, you know? And I love this person no less. I love them, you know? Like with all my heart, like I love them and they're still one of my best friends.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:44.664)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Me too.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (45:09.608)
but they're not in zone one and two, think, and in space, you know? And that's also really hard because we're just in a culture of breakup and a ghosting culture and like cancel. So we don't even deal with it. You know, like our social skills right now are really lacking. And I see a big movement to learn skills, whether it's through mediation or nonviolent communication or different forms of, you know, kind of like social gathering or social therapies. It's like there's,

Rebecca Espinoza (45:11.694)
in zone one.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:20.066)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:29.368)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (45:39.456)
lot of tools out there to learn but I encourage people to be wary of your therapist who tells you just to focus on you. know? Yes, and

Rebecca Espinoza (45:48.718)
Yeah, yeah, I think yes and exactly. you know, I just I love everything that you brought in brought into this, especially just the social permaculture and just being able to understand that like not everyone is going to be your you're not responsible to have to be everyone's person. And, you know, there's even that study that was done, especially with living in community and relation, I think it's

Sarah Wu (she/her) (46:10.321)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:17.038)
50 communities thrive the best when it's like 50 or 60 people max. Because at that point, it starts to become more of like a society, which is like the problem. If it goes exceeds that, which is a problem that we're facing now, we're not as intimately connected anymore. We're not intentionally connected. don't, the degrees of separation are further. So now we don't realize that our actions to hold are affecting other people and are affecting nature as well. It's like our degrees of separation with nature.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (46:21.938)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (46:36.327)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:46.52)
have been at least, you know, in these really developed parts of the world have been increased drastically. So I love, I love that you bring in the concept of social permaculture and let's get into a little bit more about your journey with permaculture and herbalism. How did you, how did you end up on this path? And if you want to weave in a little bit about this concept of spiritual ecology, because I don't think a lot of people know what that is.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (47:12.636)
Absolutely.

Thank you. Okay, big, okay. yeah, so I wasn't, I've been practicing herbalism now for 25 years, which makes me feel old, but I'm having age crisis anyways now. Which is, yeah, all the things. But, so I started when I was 19 because I was being failed.

Rebecca Espinoza (47:20.812)
Yeah, start wherever you are. I know that's a big question.

Rebecca Espinoza (47:34.178)
Mmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (47:44.243)
by the medical system. And it wasn't like they were trying to hurt me. It was that I had allergies. I am allergic to dairy and I was having chronic and I have a history of a lot of female reproductive imbalances, which started very young, right in high school. And I was getting like chronic ear infections. I was getting chronic infections and I was just like, what is going on?

Rebecca Espinoza (48:02.83)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:10.392)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (48:12.367)
And my doctor, bless her, she was really sweet, my pediatrician, I would like drive to her by myself. She put me on the pill and then she would give me antibiotics and it just didn't work. And I wasn't raised by, I was raised by grandmothers who are gardeners and my mom's a gardener, but they're not medicine people. They didn't give me tea. My grandfather's Chinese, so we drank tea, but we weren't given herbal tea. It was never...

Rebecca Espinoza (48:20.408)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (48:41.225)
go to. And my mom would always joke that the nurse was my best friend when I was in elementary school because I didn't feel good. was like, milk was the health food. My dad was an athlete. He was a wrestler and he was a wrestling coach. And so his health food, to satiate himself because all wrestlers have eating disorders, is that he would drink skimmed milk, you know, to make weight or to, you know, protein and stuff.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:53.006)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:03.352)
Wow. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (49:07.726)
We grew up drinking a lot of milk in our household and so I'd go to school and drink milk box, you know, but it was always not feeling good. And I have a lot of Pisces placed out. We're a little bit of like a weaker physical sign that way in our vitality, you know? And so it was always kind of sick. And it was big for me because I was like, well, I don't want to be a sickly person. Like even when I was little, I like, I wanna be strong. I wanna be, I wanna feel good. along with, so I started to have a lot of body awareness.

really young, like what is happening. But then also in high school, I started smoking weed really young. I started smoking weed when was like 13 years old. And I grew up in upstate New York, like outside of Rochester, which is a big city, but I grew up in a suburb outside of that. So it was like, you know, 15 minutes from downtown and 15 minutes into the type of a thing, you know. And so I spent a lot of time outside as a child. And I'm probably the last generation that really played outside.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:45.954)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:57.474)
Hmm... Mm-hmm...

Sarah Wu (she/her) (50:06.285)
because I was born in the 80s, right? And so I was always outside playing. I've always talked to elementals since I was a kid. I've always been able to sense ghosts and spirits, like a path you know? And I started having, really young also, like before seven, I was having DMT trips, which I didn't realize what they were until I smoked DMT, like not too long ago.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:18.744)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:27.822)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:32.033)
Wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (50:32.461)
It was crazy actually. had a flashback. was like, oh my God, is that what was happening to me when I was a little kid? So I was having a lot of...

Rebecca Espinoza (50:39.968)
Wow, was that happening like in nature for you or like, wow.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (50:42.206)
In bed, it would be in bed at night. It was when I would lay in bed at night and I would go into these like, when I would see all this stuff in my mind's eye and I would hear this like, it was crazy. And I was little, I mean, I was still sleeping in my bunk bed with my brother and my sister in the room, which means I was probably like five, six, seven years old.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:48.728)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:01.336)
you were just very active and open, especially at that age, were still not as, I guess, shaped by the external kind of hindrances and beliefs and just programming.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (51:13.151)
Yeah.

Exactly. And I used to have visions a lot when I was around little, little like that about deserts turning into oceans and forests becoming deserts. So it really was like hitting me very young, you know, and I would make these like green man faces out of leaves and stuff. And so I think like, you know, the path of the witch or the green witch in particular was like very present for me since I was a kid. just didn't know what it was.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:25.272)
my god.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (51:42.217)
And then, like I said, I started smoking weed really young and mean, cannabis is an amazing channel opener. Of course it has its shadow side, the shadow side of anxiety, the shadow side of the drug war, paranoia and plastic and all the ways that it's grown now as you're really kind of gross and the capitalism around it. when you work with it as a tool for consciousness, it's amazing.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:54.818)
Yeah, paranoia, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (52:02.702)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (52:10.377)
It really is and it opened up a lot of channels for me that way. And then also, you know, like I took acid and mushrooms also really young. I started doing psychedelics when I was like 15. I'm actually not even into them now as an adult. It was like, yeah, no, not so much. Like, I don't mind a little acid here and there, but mushrooms make me feel not so good in my body. I tend not to take them. Like they really give me a lot of like kind of nauseous. I don't like it. Yeah, I'm a proponent of them.

Rebecca Espinoza (52:23.66)
really?

Rebecca Espinoza (52:31.682)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (52:36.555)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (52:39.43)
but they don't always work. They're not always my medicine. So, you know, but when I was younger, they were really important for me. And I remember I used to spend a lot of time with those substances out in parks and out in nature. And I remember loving just like watching the trees dance and watching the clouds and all these things. And that was really important for me also in the formation of my spirituality, you know, cause I was raised Catholic and

Rebecca Espinoza (52:41.358)
It's not your medicine, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (53:09.448)
I it. was kind of, liked the singing in church, but otherwise I was like, what is all this? Like, it was very defiant always as a child too. And was like, what is all this crap trying to tell me what to do? Like, I hate this, you know? And so like, so anti that, I really got into like, what is the spirit that's all around me? And so spiritual ecology is very much speaking to, it's animistic, right? If you're going to philosophize it, it's an animistic.

Rebecca Espinoza (53:30.936)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (53:38.586)
spiritual path. And so that believes that every single creature is sentient, as well as the life systems themselves, from the wind to the rivers to the mountains and the crystals and the veins of war. you know, it's all animated and it's all live. And, yeah, and we give this name called Gaia or Pachamama, right? Yeah. And, and then people philosophize like James Lovelock with Gaia theory and

Rebecca Espinoza (53:57.633)
Alive!

Sarah Wu (she/her) (54:08.155)
You know, but it is that essence of knowing that everything is sentient and alive around you and that the planet itself is alive. That's the foundation of spiritual ecology, right? It's giving spirit to the ecosystem itself. And so that was always, always, always very, very present with me, you know, since a child. And then, you know, the path of the witch really opened for me when I was 19. I had like a million aha moments. And it was when my mom actually handed me my first herb book.

And when I got, was a few years later when I received the Spiral Bands by Starhunk, which were very important books. I went to Costa Rica when I was 19, really had my head cracked open to the impacts of monoculture. Even when I grew up with it in upstate New York, was like, know, corn fields. was always like, go out and wave to the crop duster, Sarah, you know, type of a thing. But when it's right here, you don't see it.

Rebecca Espinoza (54:50.242)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (54:55.234)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (55:04.782)
you know, it's kind like when you open up your view is when you can see a little bit clearer. And so all around that time was when I opened myself to, you know, the impacts of environmental degradation and herbalism came to me. And it was like these big aha moments of like, I'm allergic to dairy. I can try this plant and this plant, you know, and it just, it came to me because as an herbalist, because I needed it.

And because it was the only thing that helped me. it also, because I had that, you know, those seeds of feminism of that radical independence is I was like, oh, I can take care of myself now. And that was huge, you know, of learning how to care for myself. And I mean, I'm a community herbalist and a clinical herbalist now in practice, which, you know, I'm just like all these years of, of practicing and studying and

Rebecca Espinoza (55:45.848)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (55:52.685)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (56:00.964)
you know, it's like finally my practice is really taking off even because there's even many times in my life where I didn't always feel ready to share. And especially like in the early 2000s, 2010, 12, you know, because I went to herb school after university, like, people we were still super granola, we were still very like, you know, not so hip, hippie, like no one really took it serious.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:04.461)
Yay!

Rebecca Espinoza (56:11.107)
Wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:25.496)
hippie like

Rebecca Espinoza (56:29.806)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (56:30.222)
hard to kind of like express, well actually like this can be really helpful. know, now of course it's really hip and it's popular and it's amazing. Like I'm so happy that it's hip and popular as long as it doesn't get too commodified which is happening.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:38.158)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:44.878)
It is happening.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (56:47.052)
I know. so, but at the same time, like people are learning with the plants again. And so I'm happy that it's popular. And I give a lot of credit to my friend Adriana from Annamundi. She made herbalism hip. Like she made it beautiful. You know, like everyone tries to copy her because she was the pioneer in making herbalism hip.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:57.855)
my God. She's so cool.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:06.382)
She really, I mean, she has a spot out here in Venice now, which I'm just like, when I went to New York, that was the first time I was able to visit one of her shops in New York. And I'm not even kidding when I found her, which is around the same time I found you, probably on this journey. When I found out I was going to New York, I was like, the first thing on my list was to go to her shop. Like of all the things in New York, was like, I'm going to Honeywell Monday. And it is, it's reaching the masses in a way that even if it's, you know,

Sarah Wu (she/her) (57:09.966)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (57:27.171)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:36.47)
not having this effect of spiritual ecology in the way that you know it, people are still being touched by the medicine.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (57:44.82)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:45.952)
even if they don't realize it.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (57:48.45)
Exactly, exactly. And that's the gift of the plants, you know, because the plants bring us back to the world's soul. The plants are like the gate to the re-indigenization of the self. The animal, like the animistic, the anima, the soul, right there. And that like it is an object, oh, these are living creatures, actually. They're not just teas and tinctures just to, you know, and this is where I encourage people like don't just get into the commodity or the

Rebecca Espinoza (58:00.078)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (58:06.851)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (58:17.666)
fad of it. Like, it's so much deeper than that. And it's not just like, you know, buying endangered white sage, like that's not spiritual ecology. That's just the commodification of a plant for, you know, for your spiritual practice on all the levels. And so there's so much more to explore and to express. And for me, walking this path,

Rebecca Espinoza (58:32.878)
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (58:46.72)
which I call a good medicine road and be a minimalist. It's really helped me to understand who I am in the whole scheme of things, you know? And then permaculture came when I moved to Costa Rica. So, you know, I had heard of it, but I wasn't, I didn't really know, I didn't know where the resources were to learn about it. And then, you know, when I moved to Costa Rica in 2009, I went to go live in a permaculture community. And so it was, that just opened the flood gate.

I was living in primary jungle on the Caribbean and just had so much ecosystem to learn with and to learn from that permaculture came very natural to me. And also it just made so much sense. I saw the correspondence between permaculture and herbalism right away. It's about pattern recognition. It's about what's appropriate for people. And this is where the herbal fads and superfoods really upset me.

Rebecca Espinoza (59:40.408)
Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (59:45.282)
Yeah, mhm. Mhm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (59:45.577)
that are not always appropriate for everybody. Like what's appropriate for the constitution of a human body? What's appropriate for that unique ecosystem or that unique culture? It's like the only real blanket statements we can make about health or environmentalism is less plastic, less processed food. Those are like the only blanket statements. Otherwise, it's very, very, very specific.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:02.72)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:00:12.319)
people, individuals, communities, families, cultures, communities, and bioregions need. And so I really love permaculture for that. And a lot of people are like, permaculture is about gardening, it's farming, but it's not started that way. But it's really, it's a philosophy about how to live. And so I started mentoring under a teacher, a friend of mine, and then eventually taught my first PDC in 2014, and then developed my own

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:23.63)
Hmmmm

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:27.989)
It is.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:00:42.366)
curriculum, lots of things out of that with permaculture for the herbalist path. it's, yeah, it's been a journey and I really love it. I'm not so much into when I teach just like PDCs anymore. I find them like boring. I'll hear myself talk, but my mind is somewhere else because it's, I need a lot of mental stimulation. Actually I'm on a mercury and Aquarius and so I'm constantly like, you know, eating some input.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:42.69)
Yeah...

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:56.91)
Mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:02.957)
get that.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:07.79)
That makes sense.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:01:10.833)
But that's why I also love plants because plants constantly have you in a place of inquiry, you know.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:17.422)
They have so much to share and these three concepts that you just, just like spiritual ecology, I thank you for just sharing about, I feel like I've always resonated with knowing that nature was my church also. And it's rooted in these indigenous practice and we are deeply down as human beings, we are indigenous, all of us and especially coming from

We were all of nature. are of nature. And at one point we were all deeply connected to nature and the ways of learning from nature. So to be seeing like a resurgence or like a remembering and a reawakening that this is true, it makes me so excited about the future that lies ahead. And it's not going to be easy. I don't think getting there because I feel like right now we're going through some sort of shaking and awakening and a purge to remind us.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:02:08.817)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:10.648)
We don't want this anymore. This current life that we're living, it's not serving the people and it's not serving the earth for long term. So this is why I love learning from people like you because you share a lot of these truths and a lot of these realities, but also the hope that is tied into wanting to make change and something that really inspired me.

When I took your course, and again, with herbalism, with permaculture, and with witchcraft, is your way of using it as a form of social justice. I think you use them as you work with them as a form of spirituality, these three practices, but I noticed you also work with them as a form of social justice. Can you share how and why they can be a form of social justice, witchcraft, herbalism, and permaculture?

How do we continue to walk these paths in this modern day world?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:03:05.538)
Yeah, okay, so I think like starting maybe with permaculture, no, I'm start with herbalism. with herbalism, herbalism gives people a way to find like a sovereignty within themselves, right? Like I shared that, you know, the radical independence, early feminist in me was really turned on by that. But when I look at it now, you know, I see a way of

really speaking to the needs again of individuals versus just the kind of reductionist way of now everyone needs this pill or everyone needs this nutrient profile or this is how we're just going to inoculate the world into this one way. So it's like a lot of the reductionist, very monocultured medicine of

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:45.836)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:04:04.153)
you know, allopathic, I don't want to say East or West, I don't use that binary in particular with medicine, like the very, yeah, allopathic treating a disease at the pharmaceutical, it's like that right there is very disempowering to a lot of people. And it gets people hooked on the idea that they need something to make them well, when a lot of times the pharmaceuticals, yes, can save lives. Absolutely. I'm a very integrated person. Like, you know, like my herbs are not going to save you.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:24.718)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:28.93)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:04:33.432)
from a terrible car accident, they're gonna help you to recover, right? But like that emergency medicine is the gift of human. So women live through childbirth because of it, right? Like a lot of women used to die. Of course, because of things like systemic racism and a lot of the issues right now, of course women are dying again in the United States in particular. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:41.592)
So necessary, right? Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:47.075)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:57.45)
a whole situation of itself.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:05:02.922)
So herbalism though for me, it shows people a way to connect with something bigger that means that they don't have to be reliant on systems that intentionally try to cause harm, which a lot of the medical system does. It's very messed up. the United, and we're talking from a very US centric conversation right now. This is not the case in other places. But that reliance on a system that causes harm,

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:23.95)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:05:32.955)
Herbalism is a contradiction to that. Herbalism can be free. I just want to put that out there that there are a lot of... it's very accessible, meaning that it doesn't have to be this break the bank practice. Yeah, it's fun to buy and to support beautiful brands like we're doing with Animal Mundi, but it's expensive. Beautiful stuff, well sourced, mindfully sourced, supporting all different kinds of farmers projects for reason.

it costs what it does because it's not just treating herbs like commodities. It's actually honoring farmers, honoring herbalists, it's honoring growers. And if you can't pay for that, that's okay because there are herbs in your bio region that are there to help you. And that the part of like learning that self resiliency and sovereignty is actually like invest in a plant guide book or the app. Books are better.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:17.358)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:06:30.622)
You know, they're going to help you to identify who is edible in my backyard. Who is edible, maybe you don't have a backyard. Maybe you're an urban dweller living in an apartment. Who is edible in my park? Who is edible along my roadside or in that abandoned lot? Not necessarily always the best to eat, but in worst case scenario, you know where to go get food, right? Like learning, like, who are my medicine plants? Because they're there for us to work with, not to use.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:35.95)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:52.462)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:06:59.638)
but to work with, right? And that for me is a major political statement in terms of social justice. And that like, actually I'm not reliant on the systems created to keep us addicted, to keep us dumb, to keep us fearful, to keep us asleep, to keep us divided, you know, because the plants don't do that. And plant people, when you get into that community, plant people are generous. Plant people want to care.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:07:17.58)
asleep.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:07:27.704)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:07:28.832)
know, plant people love to help. They want the plants spread around, you know, and that in itself is also really radical because it's showing you that like, actually my community is here and I'm not alone. Plants help you to find other plant weirdos to connect with and we're great, you know. So that for me is a really big piece of.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:07:31.883)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:07:53.603)
the social justice component with herbalism, you know, and you see that people when they migrate around the world, what are the key things they bring with them? Are some of their plants? You know, I just read this beautiful book called The Seed Keeper by Diane Wilson, which is a story of some of the Dakota peoples and the, you know, the Indian reform schools and the Dakota US war and like the 1800s and

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:16.072)
wow.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:20.92)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:08:22.195)
you know, and it kind of jumps back and forth. But the whole kind of thing is about like the seed is where our culture is. And like these people torn from their families, you know, who no idea where they come from and how the seed can bring them back to that, you know. And that's, I think, so metaphorically as well as literally important for us right now. And to get our hands back in soil is also right, like a form of social justice, because it's reminding people that you're alive.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:28.344)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:36.514)
Incredible.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:08:51.832)
and it's reminding people that your life is precious. You know, it's like so many people in apathy are just like throwing their lives away and not caring about other people or, you know, causing so much harm to themselves and to others. It's like we don't have that belief that life is precious anymore, you know. And with permaculture through this, you know, and of course there's a lot of critique about permaculture being

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:55.246)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:09:11.884)
No.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:09:19.441)
this kind white man's colonization. And it was actually, especially in the 70s and 80s, was all the white guys who got the book deals. It was all the white guys who are the teachers. And it's not the case anymore. Permaculture is extremely diverse. There are mostly women working in permaculture. There are permaculture projects happening on every I'm getting truth bumps – every single continent around the world. And so really

Rebecca Espinoza (01:09:22.136)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:09:31.147)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:09:41.173)
yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:09:49.431)
encourage you if you're stuck in that of like, know, permaculture is this like white colonistic thing. Like it's not. It was there was like definitely it was and there still is some of that out there. But like dig deeper and you're going to find the regenerative movement happening without the book deals, without the being the keynote speaker at the conference type of a thing. It's it's out there. You just have to investigate a little bit. And permaculture also teaches us very much like herbalism.

community sovereignty, which is a big fuck you to the system. know, actually, I don't need to rely on the municipality for my water, because I can catch the rain that's falling from the sky. Granted, in some places that rain's also toxic now, right? And this is like our biggest challenge of like, okay, like we have toxified the world so much. I don't have the answer. I don't have the answer to it. It's so scary and sad.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:10:41.726)
I know.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:10:47.406)
Hmm.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:10:47.854)
You know, so, but I think, you know, permaculture is teaching you again those foundational skills of how to begin to unwind yourself because we're so, you know, tethered to systems that are causing harm that like, it's like piece by piece by piece, we're trying to like, unmesh ourselves and re-time, but you notice when we're floating around, you have to re-tie yourself into something else.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:11:12.149)
undo.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:11:16.846)
You have to ground yourself.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:11:18.159)
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, and then with witchcraft too, mean, which is a beautiful like video the other day of like, where's the witches? Like, why aren't we, you know, doing some big community spell work here? But I think the resurgence of witchcraft also at this time is really major because, you know, we were very oppressed for very long. It wasn't just like of the spiritual component, but it was also the midwives. It was the healers. It was the farmers. It was

people hanging out together. was anyone who is contradictory to the system, quote unquote, right? So, you I think that resurgence of witchcraft right now is really amazing. I absolutely love it that it's trending and I hope it becomes more than a trend. I hope it really like takes hold as, you know, people's deep spiritual path because it's exactly what it is, is that it is not centralized. It's not reliant on one. Like there is no, I mean, there's like,

Wicca, but that's not witchcraft. Wicca is a religion, right, that has a specific system around it. But witchcraft as a whole is a spiritual path that is deeply rooted in the sentience of nature and of the cosmos also. And so, and that right there is that pulling apart of the system that says actually, no, there's a power, there's a hierarchy that says this is how things are supposed to be and you have to pass through my approval.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:12:20.429)
Yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:12:32.919)
Yes.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:12:45.462)
to get to God or to get to enlightenment or to whatever it is and that doesn't exist in witchcraft.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:12:48.173)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:12:53.974)
No, and I feel like witchcraft is a beautiful like, I feel like witches are just a beautiful bridge for the cosmos and the earth together because they're connected to both. And it's just, again, it reminds me of a remembering and a coming home to like the self when I think about witchcraft. And I would love to have you on another episode to just talk about witchcraft because that's a whole other thing in itself.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:13:15.18)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:13:23.502)
And I don't want to keep you more than this conversation can go on for hours. But I just, loved hearing you speak on these three different topics because for me, it got to show the community just your multifaceted self. And it's just a beautiful reminder that as humans, that is who we are. We are so multifaceted and we are not just one thing. And I think that goes back to just like,

you know, when we had to like check off these boxes of like, who are you, other, or I'm just this one thing. It's like, we are so much more than that. We're most and nature, nature reminds us of that and these studies with herbalism and permaculture and witchcraft, like I think they're beautiful reminders that we are so much more than just one thing that we keep ourselves in a box, which is what society a lot of times to stay organized, not chaotic, we need everyone to identify as one thing because that is how we keep order.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:13:58.348)
from altitude.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:14:20.274)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:14:20.952)
So if you're open to it, can I give you a quick little rapid fire? Okay, amazing. Just so people get to know you a little bit more, but who is your go-to plan ally in this season of life?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:14:26.516)
I would love it,

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:14:36.682)
mate. I drink a lot of yerba mate. It's really good for my brain.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:14:39.402)
Mott, I saw you're drinking some right now.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:14:44.854)
Incredible, love that. What is your favorite nature location?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:14:49.226)
Rivers.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:14:52.28)
Oof, I resonate with that. I'm a river and a lake girl. And ooh, I know this might be hard to choose, but your favorite tarot card.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:15:02.928)
star. It's actually not hard, it's the star.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:05.262)
That's a really beautiful one. I took your tarot class and I remember you loved that one. And last one, what archetype are you currently resonating with?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:15:12.466)
You

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:15:18.858)
Wow, that's actually a really hard one. It might actually be the Hanged Man in the tarot. And the archetype of Neptune, like really trying to see other perspectives right now and just understand where everything is, which maybe I should try to make a little bit more direct. My Pisces is like, blah, but.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:27.343)
okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:33.774)
Mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:37.986)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:43.31)
Well, sometimes it's good, you know, that archetype serves a purpose.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:15:44.873)
Yeah, I think right now I'm the hangman.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:15:49.742)
Thank you. Well, thank you so much for sharing yourself, your medicine and your heart. I know your heart, like you said, was está muy abierto ahorita. And thank you for bringing yourself in that space. And is there anything else you want to share from your heart before we close off?

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:16:06.408)
I'm so proud of you. I'm just so proud of you. I'm just like so happy seeing how you have blossomed. You're such an amazing woman and I'm really, happy for your work. And yeah, it makes me feel really good. Knowing that you're out there and I'm so happy to everyone who also is supporting you and listening to this and following your work. Like, thank you. I appreciate it.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:16:17.262)
Well...

Rebecca Espinoza (01:16:22.375)
my gosh, I wasn't expecting that, so thank you.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:16:33.838)
Thank you. I appreciate you. And I can't wait to be reunited in person one day again. And like I said, learning from you isn't over. I can't wait to just be doing this work with you in any capacity in real life. Okay. Thank you, you two. Thank you so much, everyone, for watching or for listening and for being here. And we hope that...

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:16:39.921)
Nope.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:16:45.404)
Yeah.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:16:50.12)
Thank you. All right, we'll a great rest of your day.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:17:01.262)
this resonated in any way and if it did we'd love to hear from you. Okay, see you next week.

Sarah Wu (she/her) (01:17:05.394)
Thank you. Bye.