60. The Hard Truths About Commitment and The State of Modern-Day Dating.

In this episode, Rebecca and Shay dive into the complexities of commitment in relationships, exploring their personal histories and how these experiences shape their views on commitment. They discuss nuances between sacrifice and compromise, the modern dating landscape, and the cultural perspectives on commitment. The conversation highlights the challenges of navigating relationships today, including the prevalence of situationships (can we just be done with these?!) and the importance of clear communication and emotional presence. The duo discusses the importance of personal connection, the reflection of self in commitment, and the challenges of overcoming commitment issues. Spoiler alert: the biggest commitment begins with the self and this seeps into all areas of your life. What are the hard truths about relationships that most don't want to hear but are essential for growth in relationships? Tap into the episode to find out.

Key Moments

• Rebecca and Shay reflect on their childhood experiences with commitment.
• The nuances of commitment and exclusivity in modern dating.
• The epidemic of commitment phobia in today's society.
• Importance of emotional presence in relationships.
• Cultural differences in dating and commitment are examined.
• The importance of human connection in dating apps.
• Effort in dating shows commitment.
• Superficial interactions lead to superficial relationships.
• Commitment reflects one's ability to commit in life.
• Trusting oneself is key to overcoming commitment issues.
• Commitment requires ongoing personal growth.
• Most people you meet may not be the right fit.
• The moment you question commitment, it's time for a conversation.
• Commitment is about facing challenges together.

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Chapters

• 2:54 Exploring Commitment in Relationships
• 5:59 Personal Histories and Commitment Dynamics
• 8:54 The Difference Between Sacrifice and Compromise
• 12:12 Defining Commitment and Relationship Expectations
• 15:00 The Modern Dating Landscape
• 18:02 Cultural Perspectives on Commitment
• 21:00 Statistics and Trends in Relationships
• 34:02 The Personal Touch in Modern Dating
• 39:56 Commitment: A Reflection of Self
• 45:51 Overcoming Commitment Issues
• 57:04 Hard Truths About Commitment

Transcript

Shay Frago (00:02.069)
Hello, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Vida. We are excited to dive into today's topic as we always are and it just feels good to be back in the recording studio. But per usual, before we get started, Becca, como esta tu corazon?

Rebecca Espinoza (00:20.457)
Hi everyone, and I'm just gonna say this now, excuse me if there's some tech issues that are happening, just because I've been experiencing that. So I'm feeling frazzled if I'm honest, just because of all of the tech stuff that transpired literally like an hour before I had to hop on. My laptop completely crashed and I've been having to use this really slow.

backup desktop that I have, which is great, but it's definitely not the quality that I desire. So I'm trying to move through my perfectionism of like this podcast episode is not going to be good because my tech isn't good right now, but I'm letting that go. Other than that, I guess beyond that, I'm feeling a bit grounded and a lot more clear.

the last week I've been, I've been kind of immersed in a lot of confusion with my heart when it comes to relationships, romantic relationships and dating. And, yeah, I've had to, I feel like have a vulnerability. I feel like I had a vulnerability hangover for a little bit just with navigating some really big conversations that actually have to do with the topic that we're going to discuss today, which is commitment, which is so on par.

But I'm feeling really clear about whatever actions need to be taken next and whatever results transpire. And if there are endings or new beginnings, whatever they may be, I feel pretty grounded in that. So that feels like a solid place to be in.

Take exhale.

Shay Frago (02:08.748)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (02:15.486)
Uh, I guess kind of similar. I think the word that comes to mind is conflicted. And because it feels, my heart feels conflicted, my energy feels all over the place, a bit scattered. I feel like I'm exhausted. Like I literally feel like my body has no energy right now, if I'm being honest. Um.

But I did go to yoga this morning and moved and I just feel like it's a matter. I'm like in a season of really needing to anchor into somatic practices. And I feel like there is a, I don't know if I'd call it an ego death, but kind of.

Rebecca Espinoza (02:39.634)
Yay.

Shay Frago (02:54.488)
where I think there's like a death process happening of these parts of me that I've held on to since I was like three. And I think that's a huge reason as to why I'm like exhausted, because I'm moving through some big spiritual growth right now and moving through pieces in my relationships and my life. So I just feel all scattered, but I also feel clear. It's kind of everything.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:05.557)
Mmm... yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:23.025)
Yeah, the duality of it all just because that's how we exist. And yeah, when you're going through a big emotional transformation and the death rebirth process, it is exhausting. Like physically, you're not doing anything, but your body is trying to catch up because of what it's experiencing emotionally. So yeah.

Shay Frago (03:25.186)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (03:37.845)
No.

Shay Frago (03:42.24)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. So here we are frazzled and scattered. But we are here.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:48.565)
Just very human. We show up regardless.

Shay Frago (03:55.604)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:59.189)
I mean, I think for us, these last few months have been very much in the realms of relationships and for people who deeply value relationships and community, it's always gonna be something that I think we are immersed in, for the better, for worse. But just because, yeah, we're people who love people and who love connection and...

The topic we want to bring to the table to our community today is about relationships and it's about commitment specifically. And this obviously can apply to when you think about commitment, I think it's common relationship, like romantic relationships, but it obviously applies to friendships as well.

what commitments you have to your friendships and everything like that. But in this top, in this specific episode, I think romantic relationship is something we're going to dive more into specifically just because that's what's alive and well for us. And I think that is what a lot of people naturally experience, especially in this dating climate of the modern world. So we're going to get into a bit about that. But we want to talk a little bit about, you know, our relationship to commitment.

and when it comes to dating and romantic partnerships. So let's share a little bit about our own personal relationship to commitment and how much of that we feel has been influenced by the way we grew up and like what we witnessed in our childhood in regards to relationships.

Shay Frago (05:34.67)
I never witnessed healthy commitment growing up. I feel like I witnessed a lot of I'm committed, but I don't actually want to be here type of energy. Yeah. Exactly. So I feel like because of that, I decided at some point in my childhood or

Rebecca Espinoza (05:38.197)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:45.429)
It's like more of a task or like an obligation.

Shay Frago (05:59.884)
teenage years that I was like, I'm going to be the person who fully freaking commits no matter what. And there's also a negative connotation to that, right? Because there's healthy commitment and there's unhealthy commitment. And I was in the unhealthy commitment where I was like, no, I will never give up on my relationships if they matter to me. But in doing that, I sacrificed myself. And so

Rebecca Espinoza (06:03.765)
Hmm, okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:26.069)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (06:28.588)
I feel like now I'm at this place where I'm like, I'm a committer. Like I'm someone who commits to things. And I've learned where is the line drawn before I self-sacrifice. And like that sometimes will happen in any relationship where you sacrifice a little and then you're like, that's not gonna work for me. And then you pull yourself back.

You know, like that's a normal part of being human and relating is like we want to give our all. And especially if you're someone like me who just fully commits and pours their heart into things, because that's just who you are. And I am still very much I'm like that, but I have learned to witness my patterns when I start to self sacrifice and where the relationships depleting me and where I need to have.

boundaries and call my autonomy back and prioritize my needs in the way that I need to without without that necessarily meaning I withdraw from the relationship just like having having that healthy middle ground in a relationship I think is important that interdependence as they say

Rebecca Espinoza (07:39.315)
Yeah, interdependence, not codependence. So what does self-sacrifice look like come up for as you when, like, do you overcommit them? Like, what does that look like?

Shay Frago (07:42.455)
Yes.

Shay Frago (07:52.404)
Yeah, I spread myself too thin. Like I stopped doing the things that I need to do. So like, I'll start skipping workouts, I will sacrifice my own if they need it. No more if they need me. I think in the past, I would do that. Like if I would be like, my god, I want to spend time with this person. I'd like stop drop, I drop my workouts, I drop hangouts with friends, I drop my goals.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:01.749)
To spend time with another person. Okay.

Shay Frago (08:18.306)
I stopped doing the things that moved my life forward. And it could be because they needed me or it could be because they wanted to hang out or whatever. just like, did not have any time boundaries or energetic boundaries for that matter. That allowed me to stay true to my path in life. And then it would build unconscious resentment because months or weeks and days would go by and I'd be like,

I haven't really worked out. haven't really seen my friends. And now feel like I don't have time to see them or I haven't made any progress on my goals. And now I'm mad at this person because it's their fault when yeah, when it's like, no, that's not their fault. You, you made that choice and relinquished your own life for this person for whatever X, Y, Z reason, which was unhealthy patterns, things that I

Rebecca Espinoza (08:54.677)
because they're taking up all my time.

Shay Frago (09:12.586)
imprinted through childhood and whatnot where I was like, okay, I'm going to be fully committed. that meant, I don't know, somewhere along the lines, I guess I decided that commitment meant sacrificing. And I think it's probably because I witnessed in many of my familial relationships, my parents' relationship where they sacrifice things and they weren't happy. They were just in the relationship.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:24.735)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:38.409)
Yeah, and that's the thing about, it's like sacrifice and compromise. And know what? I think compromise has received a really negative connotation in relationships because they related to sacrifice, exactly. And I think proper compromise is actually having a conversation about being honest of like what you can give, what you can't give, why you can't give it.

Shay Frago (09:52.918)
I think people think it's sacrifice. Exactly. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:07.977)
where you can meet in the middle where two people can actually feel fulfilled to some extent, but it's not fully, no, you're not gonna get any of it all. And that's sacrificing. And the sacrifice I think is like staying silent, building resentment and never having a proper conversation, internal dialogue and with your partner. So I think those two have definitely have gotten confused. And I realized that when I had a conversation.

Shay Frago (10:33.358)
So yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:36.437)
Recently, when I said the word compromise with someone and it seemed like they got triggered, they were like, compromise? Like, what do you mean, compromise? And I was like, whoa, there's a charge there. And I wonder, like, I'm like, why is there a charge there for that person? And I had to like rephrase it. I literally had to be like, okay, no, not, I mean, like, where can we meet each other?

Shay Frago (10:46.198)
Shay Frago (10:59.694)
I used to be one of those people who would be like, we need to compromise. I'd be like, I don't believe in compromise because I associated it with sacrifice. And I remember being like, that's not the proper definition. Sacrifice is one thing, compromise is another thing. But I think a lot of our world feels similarly.

Rebecca Espinoza (11:04.398)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (11:12.285)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (11:16.468)
Yeah, that's just such a good little nugget to store for later because they're not the same thing. So I'm glad we brought that up. Yeah, so I think my relationship to commitment has, it's evolved so much. And of course, how I grew up has an influence in it. And commitment, I saw actually very strong commitment when I was a child.

My parents were married up until the day my dad passed away and you know, they were very strongly committed to each other. And obviously I don't know what the inner workings of their relationship was. Like what was like, what things were happening underneath that I had no, I didn't have privy to. But I always saw them as a team and they raised our family together and my baby.

they split things together and my dad was a provider. My mom also provided in the way that she could too. And yeah, I saw a very strong commitment, but I also saw a lot of relational problems. I won't lie about that. And what I didn't see actually was being able to work through your problems in a healthy manner. And I think that's what I'm rewriting for myself. And if I'm gonna be real, like as I've gotten older and you know, I have, was in a very strongly committed relationship.

My longest one was four years and this was the man that I thought I was going to marry and I loved him with all my heart. And after that though, I had my avoidance stage, which I think you did too, where I was like, no, I'm just going to be free and wild and like do my own thing and whatever. But as you get older, as you come home to yourself, like truly authentic to yourself and like what your values are and

I came to understand a big value of mine is relationships, like authentic, strong, stable relationships. And commitment comes with that. So I am not ashamed to say I want my person, like I want my person to build a life with where we commit to ourselves first and foremost and to each other, to grow together, to invest in the relationship and to see what we, the magical things that we can build together through.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:31.797)
the hard times, but also through like the beautiful moments as well. And I've really been tested through that. I've like really been tested of like, do you actually want that? Do you? It's I think the real question is, do you feel worthy of that? Do you feel worthy of someone who can choose you and choose you're the relationship you have and commit? And I think for a long time, long time subconsciously, I didn't. And I think it was because

I did see my father struggle a lot with committing in certain ways. you know how they talk about sometimes a typical father thing, especially in Latin families where it's like he's there physically, but sometimes emotionally he's not because he has so much probably repressed shit that he needs to work through that he's never faced that it doesn't allow him to actually be there and commit fully.

Shay Frago (14:17.335)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:30.451)
And that's what I felt with him sometimes. And my dad, you know, he was an alcoholic, so like he went through that. But as he got older and he did his work, actually his emotional commitment was so fucking there. And I got so much time with my dad when I was actually older and I was going through my spiritual healing journey. I got so much time with him that it helped me rewrite those patterns of like what I what kind of commitment I want from a man and like what kind of partnership that I want.

Shay Frago (14:42.155)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:00.943)
And it was so fucking healing. And recently, you I had a conversation with someone that I'm seeing about this where I'm like, I'm ready to commit. And that was so scary for me to say to be like, I want to be in a relationship with you. I don't want to be in a situationship. I don't just want a date. Like I want to fucking build something. And so scary. But because, know, there's a potential of rejection where someone's like, fuck, I actually don't know if I can give you that.

Shay Frago (15:21.294)
You

Shay Frago (15:25.88)
For sure, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:30.601)
because there's a lot of people who can't fucking commit right now. A lot. There is like an epidemic.

Shay Frago (15:36.462)
No, seriously, there really is. think like men and women alike have forgotten how to connect to their hearts and have forgotten to own their desire and their longing because our society has taught us that it's weak. It is weak to need another person, to have needs, to have emotions.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:50.869)
Hmm.

It's like weak. Yeah, it's weak.

not even just need, but actually just want. It's insane. Like, where did, how did we get there? Like, I just want...

Shay Frago (16:07.468)
Yeah, I feel like it's normalized to want in the like lustful desire sense, but like to admit that like, I have needs and I like, I need your attention and I need your love. Like the wanting part I think is easy for people. That's why it's like those first few weeks. It's like, yeah, I want you, I'm attracted to you. But like the moment...

Rebecca Espinoza (16:12.135)
Lust, for sure.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:29.717)
But to say like, want a relationship, I want a marriage, I want a house, like those steps of those wants.

Shay Frago (16:34.676)
Yeah, no, commitment phobia, 100%. Because then it means you need to own that you have a need.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:42.097)
Yeah, I guess that's true. That's yeah, at the end of the day, does come down to the need of like the need of security. And let's fucking face it, everyone. We are animals. We're human. We're human. We're animals. We need community. need a we need relational. Yeah, we need relational connection to survive. It's it's innate in us. Partnership, you know, is innate in us. And, I think in them, this like,

Shay Frago (16:57.548)
Yeah, we were literally built for connection.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:10.567)
modern day landscape of dating, I think there are varying degrees of commitment and I think, you know, we've experienced it for sure. So I definitely want to get into that. Like, what is it? What does it mean to be exclusive but not entirely in a committed relationship? Or is it the same thing? What like what is our meaning of being in a committed relationship? Like, what's a fucking situationship? Let's get into these nuance things.

Shay Frago (17:33.71)
All these stupid labels that we've had to develop because of all the epidemic. Yeah, well, I feel like, you know, people say, like, older generation, I have some friends who are like, in their 40s, I have friends that are in their 60s. And they're just like,

Rebecca Espinoza (17:37.941)
haha

Beers!

Rebecca Espinoza (17:55.049)
Mm-hmm, farties.

Shay Frago (18:02.318)
what is dating because like, back in my day, they're like, we literally took a woman on a date, but you guys will be like, I'm dating and you're like, oh, like, what are you guys doing? I like come over to his house at night and then I watch a movie. And then that's it. And like, there's no courtship, there's no none of it. And I feel like the part of that is probably the wrongdoings of the wave of modern day feminism.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:15.157)
and then we have sex.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:21.011)
Rebecca Espinoza (18:31.285)
Feminism!

Shay Frago (18:33.11)
And, you know, I think we lost sight of a healthy traditional gender role relationship. And I think everyone struggles to admit nowadays that like, we do like healthy traditional gender roles. You know, like, I think most women, at least in my life, do like to be courted, do like chivalry, do like, you know, like him to take the lead and all of that.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:51.519)
I love to be courted.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:58.634)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (19:02.584)
But then our men, our millennial men, especially, grew up in a society that's like, are equals, do not do anything for me. And women grew up, like, you know, I fell into this category too, where it's just like, no, I'm independent, I don't need you, I don't want you to do things for me, I wanna provide for myself. And like, that holds true, but deep, deep down, as I like did my inner work and learned to own my actual desires, I was like,

Rebecca Espinoza (19:17.033)
I don't need a man.

Shay Frago (19:31.744)
No, I like traditional gender roles. I like that a guy would be the one to plan the dates and pick up the check. I don't mind splitting if he asks me to split, but I would, you know, like, I would rather operate in the traditional gender role sense. And so then I feel like dating just became hanging out and then we got confused. And, and it's like, no, like just because you exist in the same room watching a movie, that's not dating. It's not getting to know each other.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:51.475)
Yeah, it did become to say yeah.

Shay Frago (20:00.94)
That's not meeting my need for quality time. Like I am not someone who does well with surface level connection. I like need to be able to go deep. I don't need to know all your traumas right away, but I like need to know, like I need to feel your heart. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like dating in the modern day society has now just become hanging out and we call it dating and we're starved. We are starved for connection.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:15.295)
Like, presence. I want your fucking presence there. Emotional presence.

Shay Frago (20:30.21)
And we are starved for deep presence and we are starved for our deepest, deepest hearts longing and people are terrified to admit it. And I get it. Like that's how we were groomed and that's not what's normal anymore. So it takes a lot of strength and courage and bravery to be like, actually, like this is what I freaking want and own it and say it and be okay if the person rejects it and be like, nope, someone out there also wants this too. And it is.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:42.463)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (21:00.064)
a humbling journey, I would say that much. How would you, yeah, how would you define dating? Same, same, different?

Rebecca Espinoza (21:02.195)
It is extremely humbling.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:11.881)
You know, there have definitely become varying degrees of commitment. Like I actually had this conversation, you know, where, you know, when someone asks you to be exclusive, for me, actually I've never had that happen before until recently. Because before it's been like, let's be my girlfriend or like, can we be like together?

Shay Frago (21:24.009)
huh.

Shay Frago (21:33.902)
Mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:35.285)
and then you're monogamous, you're together, you're integrated into each other's lives. And I actually had this relation, this conversation recently where I was like, I don't know if I'm in a relationship or not right now. And that's not okay. I feel confused. And if I have to question if I'm in a relationship, I'm not. So, so let's just put that out there. If you have to question if you are in a relationship with someone in a committed,

Shay Frago (21:48.248)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (21:53.591)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:00.341)
relationship with someone, you're most likely not in relationship with them because there should not be that level of confusion if there is real commitment. And I brought that up into a conversation and, you the foundation of it was, you know, oh, but we're exclusive. And I was like, what, what does that mean? Can you, can you share what exclu- and then the, you know,

Shay Frago (22:20.078)
Guys

Rebecca Espinoza (22:26.965)
Exclusive, where I come to understand, it's like, okay, people know you're together. That's what I like, know it's exclusivity to be. It's like, people know you're together and you're monogamous. You're not dating another partner and you're just dating one person. It's the step before. But for me, I was like, why does that have to even be there? Like, already, it's the fear. It's like, I wanna commit without fully committing.

Shay Frago (22:31.725)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (22:40.162)
The step before girlfriend, boyfriend.

Shay Frago (22:50.159)
It's the uncommitment commitment.

Mm-hmm. I'm gonna give it a test run, a test drive, the way you would with a car before you buy it fully.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:55.545)
And this is where you have to dig deep and exactly, exactly. And for me, I was like, you know what? I wanna be in a relationship. I want to build with a person. So to me, that's what committed relationship means. You integrate each other into your individual lives. So now there's a level of interdependence and you choose each other every single

day, you choose your relationship, you choose to step up to the plate if there are difficult conversations to be had so you can better the relationship and of course better yourselves. At the end of the day for me a committed relationship is choosing each other and choosing to do the work together, choosing to evolve and grow together and build something just stable and lasting. That to me is a committed relationship and it's

the highs and the lows, it's not just the highs. Because I think when you're just dating, there's so many highs that you don't have to expose the lows. You don't have to talk about your relationship with finances, like where you are with money. You don't have to talk about your insecurities and your fears. You probably don't even have to go that deep into your past relationship traumas and how they affected you in the present. You don't have to maybe keep up with consistent communication because you're not committed, so you don't have that responsibility to that person.

Shay Frago (24:03.424)
no.

Shay Frago (24:15.889)
no.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:24.745)
So to me, I'm sorry, but I want all of it. So it's like, I want a committed relationship. So again, if you have to question, if you're in a relationship, you're most likely in a situationship, which means having the pros of being in a relationship and not having the real responsibilities. So at the end of the day, you actually don't have, you don't have any of it. You're not gonna have anything sustainable. Situationships is like, you don't have anything with the future.

Shay Frago (24:45.728)
It's not. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:53.031)
is how I see a situation ship, which unfortunately, most people today are experiencing a lot of dating dynamics like that. And I think it's because there are so many avenues now that make it so easy for us to avoid and be distracted.

Shay Frago (24:57.079)
as most people.

Shay Frago (25:09.613)
yeah, the second there's a low, people bail. People are like, no, this is too much drama for me.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:11.721)
Mm-mm. Yeah, get out. Like, I'm sorry, I'm distra-

It's like I already, I'm already busy with work. I'm already busy with like my side projects. I'm already like, I want to travel. Like I want to do all these things.

Shay Frago (25:19.566)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (25:25.038)
It's like, yeah, I remember dating someone who was just like, I really like you and we can just keep going, but let's not talk about emotions. I was like, what? Okay. And then also I've had people who are like, yeah, like I've hung out with other women, but like, I'm not comfortable if you do that.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:37.107)
What?

my god

Rebecca Espinoza (25:52.019)
with you dating other guys, basically.

Shay Frago (25:54.358)
It's like, okay, you want me to be committed to you, but you can't be committed to me. And like, you know, that's my experience with men. I'm sure there are women who do this too, you know? And like, it's a problem on both sides. And I think that's like most relating nowadays is like, we can do the fun stuff, but the moment that it gets real, like, let's not, and I'm going to withdraw a little, but I don't want to end it. And then when we can bypass this moment, we can

Rebecca Espinoza (26:03.633)
for sure. For sure.

Shay Frago (26:23.606)
Reconnect and it's like that's not how this works. It's not a real relationship. That's not real life That's not even really living

Rebecca Espinoza (26:32.253)
I would love to know the statistics, let me see if I can look at it right now, but love to know the statistics of like, what is the level of commitment and these, you know, situation types in America versus foreign countries.

Shay Frago (26:48.119)
it's so different. Yeah. I'm sure you could ask chat GPT.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:50.441)
I'm gonna, let me see, statistics. We're doing some Googling.

Shay Frago (26:58.154)
I'm sorry.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:00.576)
of dating.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:06.527)
versus I feel like for some reason maybe Europe is better.

Shay Frago (27:11.402)
Yeah, because Europe's still pretty old school in some ways.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:16.745)
If it's very true, it's very true. feel like. Did you find something? Let's see.

Shay Frago (27:19.022)
okay, I've got some stuff.

So it says, when comparing dating and commitment trends between the US and other countries, national statistics can vary widely depending on cultural, social, and economic factors, of course. But this is the general breakdown. So in the US, the average age of marriage has been rising steadily. So in 2023, it was 30 for men and 28 for women. But the divorce rate is around 40 to 50 % of marriages end in divorce. That means that like,

Rebecca Espinoza (27:33.877)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:48.981)
Wow! That's so sad.

Shay Frago (27:53.448)
nearly half of people who get married get divorced. That's really sad and that I feel like that just shows, you know, but it's especially like the divorce rates are among millennials and college educated individuals. And this is why we're talking about the epidemic because like I'm a millennial because I'm like, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:55.305)
Nah, that is so sad.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:10.389)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're millennials.

Shay Frago (28:16.404)
And then it says, yeah, cohabitation before marriage is increasingly common for couples nowadays. So around 75, 70 % of couples cohabitate before tying the knot, which is huge in previous generations. And this is, I think like that plays into a factor. Like I've told Becca how I'm like, I don't want to live with a partner again, unless we're like engaged, because I feel like...

Rebecca Espinoza (28:22.634)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:26.869)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (28:39.084)
I feel like that's starting to take marriage seriously. And that's why I feel like a lot of people in our age group, I don't feel a lot of people take marriage seriously anymore, personally. And then, let's see. In Canada, apparently, marriage trends, they're also waiting longer to get married. So average age for marriage is 32 for men and 30 for women. Divorce rates are 38 % compared.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:48.817)
No, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:04.181)
Mm.

a little bit lower.

Shay Frago (29:07.96)
to the US and cohabitation is also very common, but it's around 50%. So a little less. And then Europe, the average age for marriage is older. So it's around like 33 to 35. And then divorce rates are slightly lower. So it's around 30 to 40 % in some areas, it's 50%. So not too, too different.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:22.543)
Rebecca Espinoza (29:32.029)
Okay. Not too much of a difference. Okay.

Shay Frago (29:37.954)
But cohabitation there is a lot higher. like 80, 80 % of couples. Yeah, in Japan, apparently, they start marrying around 30 and divorce rates is 30%. And cohabitation does not happen out there before marriage. So again, that's more old school and their divorce rates are lower.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:43.029)
Wow. Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:55.231)
Okay, slow.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:59.677)
Right, it's until you're

For sure. Lower.

Shay Frago (30:07.406)
And people are getting married around like late 20s, early 30s, which I feel like is fairly normal. And then in India, where it's very, very traditional, you get married somewhere around 28 to 30 for women, 30 to 32 for men, but divorce rates are around one to 2%.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:13.203)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:17.224)
Traditional.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:26.133)
That's crazy. See, but you know, a lot of those marriages are potentially arranged.

And I think divorce is very much looked upon. So, because it's religious.

Shay Frago (30:40.376)
yeah, for sure. It's more religious and cultural things. But I feel like at the end of the day, what we can take away from that is having values. Having values that everyone culturally adheres to. And like, you know, I know a lot of people hate on religion, but I think one of the beautiful things of religion is that

Rebecca Espinoza (30:52.021)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:56.606)
Exactly.

Shay Frago (31:06.506)
Everyone has common ground in terms of values on relationships, how you treat people, generally speaking, finances, like the way you are. And I feel like, especially in the States, we don't have any value.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:14.015)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:20.999)
No, we've, I think, have very much drifted away from, I feel like a lot of the Valley now, it's like, okay, yes, have, the Valley's like status. We like, okay, you have a family now, that's the next thing, you have like the house and you like do these things, you have the car, you successful car, but it's like.

Shay Frago (31:32.558)
status.

Shay Frago (31:38.858)
successful career. You look this certain way. It's on external factors.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:45.563)
Like what is that gonna get you? And at the end of the day, know, people are getting divorced. Like these things are being fought over sometimes, the house, the cars, like the money, just like, and then what? So left and then you go and do it all over again. Like.

Shay Frago (32:01.752)
Basically, yeah, it's like status. I feel like I used to judge dating when I was dating based off of the questions they asked me. So if they were like, what do you do for work? Where did you go to college? I'd be like, do you have nothing of substance to ask me? Because all of us fucking went to college and all of us have some sort of job because we have to. Like all of us are working college kids. That literally is to me is not getting to know anybody.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:03.797)
That's so sad. Sorry.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:15.093)
you

Rebecca Espinoza (32:29.077)
we're all college freaking kids, come on we're a fucking millennial, come on, this is like this is standard

Shay Frago (32:31.358)
like yeah

like yes I have a job okay if you're curious and yes I went to college but where doesn't freaking matter I went like

Rebecca Espinoza (32:45.301)
I will say this is why I do give some, I do give some props to the dating apps. Now something I actually did read, I was looking at an article right now about all the datings between differences in Europe and the States. And one that I did find was Europeans tend to meet more naturally because they're really big with social groups. Yeah, they're really big with social groups. And another thing was that they, Americans,

Shay Frago (33:03.178)
Mm-hmm. You're like out in the battle. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:13.289)
have more labels with dating.

Shay Frago (33:17.259)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:18.453)
American dating culture tends to place an official dating label on what you're doing versus with European cultures. It's just really, yeah. Yeah, it's just.

Shay Frago (33:28.046)
because it's probably clear what they're doing over there. I like you, you like me, we are dating. Maybe we are seeing other people, but we'll be open and honest about that.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:38.986)
That's really funny. But what I do give props to the dating apps, you know, which are very widely used over here. And also they're now everywhere in developed countries. But is the prompts like I take those prompts very seriously, not very seriously. Like I just I really like that they're there. And then voice notes got introduced to the apps. And I was like, this is great, because for me, voice

Shay Frago (33:54.784)
I do.

Shay Frago (34:02.936)
yeah. It's becoming more personal.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:06.749)
It's more personal voice is really important to me personally, because you just are tapping into someone's frequency in that way. So.

Shay Frago (34:12.63)
Yeah, you can feel their energy a little more. It's more like meeting someone in real life than it used to be.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:19.005)
Yeah, it's more human. It's definitely more human. that's something, you know, when I go on the apps, I'm just like, it's just funny because I was, I was helping one of our friends one time with like, kind of, she was just like, yeah, you know how we always look at each other?

Shay Frago (34:34.658)
making the profile. I was like, I barely, I know that the voice note era just started, but like I was already off the app. And so I'm like, that's kind of cool.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:41.929)
You weren't there anyway, yeah.

You know how we always, always like, we always all just like look at each other's profiles and send like, we send like screen grabs of our profiles. So she was over and I was like looking at her at her profile and she was looking at mine. She's like, can you like help me with mine and look at like what's there and what's not? And then I was like helping her. Like we were like swiping or like going through her likes, her likes and her matches. And I was helping her respond to things because she was like, you're really fucking good at like responding to the prompts.

And I have a rule where I'm like, I never just like a guy's photo. No, but I was surprised that this friend of ours, she does that. I was like, what? She's a mutual friend of ours. And I was like, excuse me. This is your, your, come on, you know better. Like that's not, that's very superficial. And I was like, I'm sorry, but I, and if a guy only likes my photo, no, I X him out.

Shay Frago (35:19.782)
no.

Shay Frago (35:25.41)
okay. That's it.

Shay Frago (35:38.592)
I usually, yeah, they, like, because I'm like, you're not putting in any effort. Like it's really easy to, yeah. It's so easy to just go and like multiple photos that's of no substance to me. And the way I approached dating apps two years ago when I used them was that like, was like intentional and like,

Rebecca Espinoza (35:42.707)
You're not trying. You're not trying. How are you going to stand out amidst the sea of people that are out here just like

Rebecca Espinoza (36:00.456)
Exactly.

Shay Frago (36:04.98)
I was that type of person who was like, was going to go the extra mile so that you knew I'm that type of person that like actually takes the freaking time. I'm not doing the same thing as everyone else. And if a guy did that to me, then I knew he had more substance to offer and he was maybe a little more serious.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:08.756)
me too.

Me too.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:16.253)
No, and I'm exactly, exactly. The last time I was on the app, I was probably on there for like maybe like two months. I only matched with two men that I actually continued conversation with because and those two men, one of them, I actually prompted the conversation because I was with his prompt and he did a really good job. Like we can share conversation. The other one. And then I went on a date with him.

The other one is the one that I'm dating now. And he stood out like no other because of the kind of conversation that he prompted. I was like blown away when he answered my prompt. No one had answered like him before. And I was like, this is fucking worth it. This is worth it. And it matters. It matters. If you're just out there liking people's photos and not actually trying, I don't think it's going to get you very far in my personal opinion.

Shay Frago (37:02.388)
yeah. I remember. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (37:13.031)
Not if it's someone who's worth your time.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:15.795)
Yeah. So that's just, I think that that's just the modern day dating world now. And it's fucking insane just to think about generations ago where they didn't have to think about any of that.

Shay Frago (37:26.122)
yeah. And if you start to and like, if you guys start to humanize it, and you are dating, and you're just thinking of like, I'm just gonna like, like, like, it's like lining a group of people up. And I'm like, like you don't like you like you don't like you would you do that in real life? Absolutely not. And people are used to behaving that way. And it gives people this false sense of confidence and power and like,

Rebecca Espinoza (37:39.497)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (37:53.506)
you're better than someone else type of energy because you're like, I don't like you, I like you. it's just like, you like, how would you feel if you were like, you were the person being swiped on in real life? Like if that's not how you would treat a person in real life, don't do it on the app because everything is frequency. And this is why we have other commitment issues. So it's like, if that's how you start your relationship on the app was just like,

Rebecca Espinoza (37:58.921)
No, dude.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:06.229)
Exactly. Um, no.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:16.031)
There were,

Shay Frago (38:22.706)
superficial thing, your relationship's likely going to be superficial and you're going to end up in that situation and be frustrated and starved for the connection that you're really looking for.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:26.293)
Yeah. And one, you're going to wonder why it's like, well, this guy didn't put in that much effort. This person didn't put in that much effort to begin with. He just hearted your photo and that was enough for you to jump, jump into it be like, let's fucking go. So yeah, they didn't have to.

Shay Frago (38:42.779)
And then it comes down to your self worth and how do you value self?

Rebecca Espinoza (38:46.617)
Mm hmm. Actually, there was like a social experiment video. I have to find it. might link it on here, but I'm to look for it and send it to you, But they did that. They lined women up. And this guy, it had to be like he was swiping. He literally had to be like left, right, left, right, left. And the women were just coming in front of him and in the line. And he got with he was like, Whoa, this is very this.

Shay Frago (39:07.83)
the humanizes it again.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:08.423)
It's very human, yeah, humanizing the experience and he was, it was hard for him to be like, shit. And it was all based on looks because that is what's happening on the apps. That is what is happening on the apps. And he had to just straight up in front of their faces be like, yes, no, yes, no.

Shay Frago (39:15.5)
Mm-hmm, because that's what an app is.

Shay Frago (39:23.202)
Yeah, and then you imagine if like you're the person on the other side and someone's like yes or no on you. Like you have to bring it back to you because that is what someone else is also experiencing. And I think like when we can feel that own emotion within ourselves of like, that would like really hurt me or that would like, we have to remember we're all humans behind these screens.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:43.441)
Mm-hmm. Commitment is, you know, I think an ever... It's just not one thing that defines commitment, right? And I think definitely... Hold on one second. Let me just... I need to...

Shay Frago (39:56.322)
Mm-mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:04.201)
My light just turned off.

anything I can charge it with. It's fine. Okay.

Do you find that when people have a hard time committing in their relationship, it's actually a reflection of their inability or ability to commit in other areas of their life? Like, I'm so curious. Like, let's talk about how commitment in relationship is actually a reflection of just commitment in general and their ability to do so.

Shay Frago (40:34.318)
I think so. I am a firm believer that for the most part, how we do one thing in life is how we do everything. There's obviously nuances with that statement, but I do believe that a lot because I think I witness how I'm so freaking committed in my life to my goals, to myself, to my friendships, to my romantic relationship, to my freaking dog, to my plants.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:42.378)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:54.505)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:59.765)
Yeah, seriously, you're so right.

Shay Frago (41:03.154)
I like fully commit and give it my all. And if I decided to do that, I give it my all. And it's going to look different every day because I'm human, but I commit, I show up, I do the work. I'm willing to do the work without obviously sacrificing what I need also, as we said at the beginning, but you know, I am, I'm like that. And I feel like on the flip side, I've seen people and I've dated people who I'm like,

You say you're committed, but you're only like half-assed committed. Like you're half-assed committed to your goals. You're half-assed committed to me. You're half-assed committed to like things you want out of your life, et cetera. And I just watch some kind of meander through things and it's really, that's like, all right, well like that's, if that's what you mean commitment is you're not getting very far and this relationship's not going to go very far. And you can feel that like.

I think deep down we can all really feel when someone's truly, truly committed because they show up and they keep showing up and they keep showing you that they're willing to. And that's when you feel that like unwavering commitment, that like all in type of commitment. And you might be wobbly here and there, but you can tell. And so I do think

If you really want to see how committed a person is and how committed they would be to you and your relationship, especially in early dating, look at how they are in the other areas of their lives. Like you can ask them, you're like, what goals are you working on? And then you could see, like they might tell you like, I want to accomplish this. I want to accomplish this. And you watch their actions. What are they doing to get to that goal? They're not that committed to that goal if they're not taking the action. And if that's what they're doing there, then they're definitely going to be like that with you to some degree, I believe.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:51.909)
wholeheartedly agree with that. You know what? Now that you say when you really turn it up, because I know you obviously, and I know how fucking committed you are to like your vision and your goals and you know me too. And like, it's for that reason, we work really well in harmony. And this is why we decided to like build what we build in a podcast together because

Shay Frago (43:02.381)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:21.437)
Not everyone can show up in the way that we show up. And because of that, have standards.

Shay Frago (43:27.598)
We've ended friendships and potential business partnerships with friends because they are not as committed as we are.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:34.869)
They get, you people get overwhelmed and they don't know how to prioritize their lives. They don't know how to make clear decisions. They don't know how to trust themselves. They don't know how to how to trust uncertainty and like all these things because of like whatever inner self-worth and all the things that you say. And now when I think about it, when I think about like past relationships and when I think about their inability to commit to me, I'm just like they were also

having a hard time making clear decisions in other areas of their lives like they're like and that was that is so

telling about someone's ability to show up in life. And at the end of the day, I want someone who is confident in their ability to show up in life. And I have this unwavering conviction about myself that regardless of the shit that I'm being put through and the chaos, the shit storm that I'm swirling in, I always trust that I'm going to be fucking good.

Like I always knew very young that I was going to be solid when it came to life, my career, money. And I knew I was going to be successful in what success means to me. Right. And I know you feel the same way. And I remember telling this to someone, to a guy I was romantically involved with. And he was like, wow, that is really strong conviction. And I don't even have that.

Shay Frago (44:48.151)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:14.869)
I don't trust that I'm going to be good. And I was like, wow, okay. And that was really awakening for me because when I thought about the people that I surround myself with, like my close knit group of people, you have that conviction about yourself. And another really good friend has that conviction about themselves too.

And even though you may not be having that like, I'm fucking good right now, you still have that trust to keep moving forward. And that's what's important.

And do need someone to be able to match that with you? Because if not, you're not going to go anywhere. So it's true. It's like, see how they do life in general. Are they always fucking scattered? Can they not meet deadlines? Like, do they always show up late to your fucking dates? Do they always show up late to meetings? Like, are they, like, are they constantly, like, unsure about the direction that they want to go with in life? Like, do they not, can they not commit to even friendships?

Those are things that are important to look out when you're dating because I do think it leaks over. It spills over without a doubt.

All right, I feel like this is gonna be.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:36.244)
Okay.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:41.183)
So clearly we have gone through a very diverse journey with commitment. What have you done to overcome that struggle with commitment? Because I know you were avoidant, I was too at one point. And avoidant tendencies still come up for me, like I'm going to say that honestly. And what's changed for us?

Shay Frago (46:59.726)
Same.

Shay Frago (47:05.592)
I've learned to trust myself more, honestly. I think for a long time when it came to romantic relationships and dating, I was very much like, it was always about them and always about them like wanting to be with me and like, my God, if they didn't choose me, then I'm not worthy of love or, all the stories that I had attached. I would say my core wound has always been like, I'm going to be abandoned.

Rebecca Espinoza (47:31.636)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (47:32.864)
at my most vulnerable time of need because I don't matter. And even to this day, that is something I work on. And I am learning to trust myself and find all the evidence in all the ways in which I matter and people stay and people wanna do this with me and that like what I want exists in the world. And so just like trusting that whatever decision I make in any given moment, whether it's to stay or go,

or whatever it is that like I've got this and I've got me and learning to trust myself to the deepest level. And it's consistent work and I'm still doing it, but I feel like because of that, that has helped me be committed to my vision and being committed to my vision that could be anyone. But the person that's in front of me is the one that I'm doing the work with. And as long as he is...

Rebecca Espinoza (48:05.877)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (48:31.488)
willing to do that work with me and we're choosing each other and we're committed to a shared vision then like I'm in and that's definitely helped me.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:37.781)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and trust, think is such a intangible like thing. People are going to be like, what is trust? how do you and honestly, it's, I feel like it's just experience. You have to keep be, you have to keep willing to like lean in the moment you want to like back out. You have to lean in the moment. You're just like, oh my God, I don't want to, I don't want to express the desire. You have to fucking lean in. And there is no like,

Shay Frago (48:57.804)
Yeah, it's a good feeling.

Shay Frago (49:08.77)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:11.379)
I think we can easily say like, my gosh, yes, we did NLP, which we have. We've been doing like, at the end of the day, it's doing the inner work. That's it. It's like.

Shay Frago (49:20.694)
knowing, yeah, knowing yourself, knowing what you want, knowing what you value, knowing what you're a stand for, I think is really what it comes down to. It's just like, what is your dream life? And what is your dream relationship? And if the thing that is in front of you is not it, and this is so nuanced, because there are going to be moments where it's not it in a relationship, but

Rebecca Espinoza (49:27.667)
Got it.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:40.04)
Of course.

Shay Frago (49:43.156)
In those moments, can you be like, this is not it. So then you re align, you have the courage to communicate, you have the courage to ask for what you want, you have the courage to be like, look, like this relationship is not working the way it is, but I do want to be with you. How can we move it in the right direction? Or are we not on the same page with that anymore? Like that is, that is the trust factor is that like, you are committed to your vision and willing to do whatever it takes.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:50.741)
Mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:02.185)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shay Frago (50:10.582)
And that means having the hard conversations, doing the inner work, leaning into the discomfort, all of it.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:18.377)
Yeah. Yeah, I think the moment like I think at the end of the day, like for me, it was a big thing of like self-worth and yeah, trust was like a part of that. Like I had to work so much on like what I felt I was worthy of and like I did deserve a lasting love. I did deserve someone who was going to choose me. And you know what? I'm still not there. I still haven't been in a relationship where I'm like, they're choosing us right now.

Like I've been going through the dating hamster wheel for the last few years and I'm still not there. But you know what? I'm getting so much better at being like, I recognize right now you are not going to choose us and that is a you problem. I can't force you to show up and be like, I'm confident in myself to know I can show up and choose us. And I've done it so many times in the past and I've been like kind of like

Shay Frago (50:47.276)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:16.841)
Yeah, I'm just kind of going to go along with what this person wants, even though it's not really, it's self-sacrificing, like you mentioned, and my needs aren't being met, and I'm not going to say anything. And then deep, deep down, I'm going to build a resentment, and I'm going to just break down one day because I feel heartbroken, and I feel abandoned, and I feel abandoned by myself first and foremost. And, you know.

Shay Frago (51:34.146)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:42.591)
Like, I think it's the deep clarity, the moment you start to develop that self-worth, you can walk with more confidence. You can speak with more confidence. You can walk with more trust. And even sometimes you don't have it fully fleshed out, you work through it. Write it out, write it out. It's not gonna come out perfectly. Talk it out with someone. Like I called Shay the other day, I was like...

I'm about to have this really big conversation with this person that I really like and I want to commit to and I don't know if they want to commit to me and it's fucking scary. Shay, help. Like, what do I say? Like, I'm just, am I asking? And I literally asked you, I was like, am I asking for too much? Am I being too much? Like, I needed to, I needed to add a soundboard and I needed to be supported because I don't have it all figured out. I'm still learning, but I have the confidence now.

Shay Frago (52:16.513)
Yeah

Shay Frago (52:32.33)
Yeah, same.

Rebecca Espinoza (52:35.325)
and I was able to go and communicate it. And it was such a beautiful conversation and so healthy. And this has been one of the healthiest dynamics I've ever had in my entire dating experience. Even if it doesn't end up being the person that I end up with. And it's only gonna keep getting fucking better because once you reach one threshold, you're gonna keep going over it because you've broken the past patterns. Way back when, five, six years ago, I would have never said the words that have been coming

Shay Frago (52:56.994)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (53:04.799)
come out of my mouth about my needs and my desires and I would have just stayed silent and mute and probably gotten depressed, which is what happened in the past. So growth is there, but you have to be willing to be courageous, like Shay said, put one foot in front of the other. And something like, sometimes you just have to get through that one conversation first and not think about, okay, the next six months, are we gonna be together? Just get.

Shay Frago (53:14.797)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (53:32.526)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (53:34.293)
through the one difficult conversation and reassess from that and then the next one. And then eventually you can start deciding like, okay, we're in a place when we can start talking about the six months. We can start talking about that one year. But sometimes it's just that one foot in front of the other in that one moment.

Shay Frago (53:54.286)
And that's the truth. I think that's when your commitments really tested. It's like in the hard times because our tendencies will want to come out. Like I want to flee. Like I'm like, I've, I would say this season of my current relationship has tested us like no other and

Rebecca Espinoza (54:09.955)
yeah.

Shay Frago (54:18.274)
The first human being that I've experienced that keeps being like, no, like I want this relationship. We're going to keep going and it's messy and it's hard and we don't have all the answers and we haven't quite figured out how to get out of this hard season just yet, but neither of us have given up. And I think like that's what we're all kind of looking for. And like it's been a year for us, but it's still like, okay, I can't even think of the year ahead. Cause just like Becca said, we have to look at that.

Rebecca Espinoza (54:39.4)
Yeah!

Shay Frago (54:47.776)
one foot in front of another and like remind yourself like, what are you actually committed to here? And it, it's commitment to the vision. And then you're doing the work with the person in front of you. And then you discover like, this is, and this is the person for me because we figured it out and we stayed committed to the vision that we each have for the relationship and did the work with each other. And I think like when you can start practicing that instead of attaching to it being one single human being.

it makes it a lot easier for you to move forward. And that's not saying that you're not committed to the person in front of you. It just means that like, we get so fixated when we do finally meet a person of just like, we need to do this work together because you are my person. It's like, no, your person is the one that's willing to stay committed to the vision and practice that with the person in front of them, which ultimately creates you guys being each other's person.

Rebecca Espinoza (55:16.649)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (55:28.489)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (55:43.817)
Yeah, yeah, it's the commitment. And, you know, we talked about this in one of our voice notes a while back, but it was like...

Sometimes we have this like long list of what our person is, who our person is. And then sometimes you end up and then you end up a lot of the times you end up. Yeah, you end up in this relationship or like fuck the list. Like this person just showed me something else that I'm like, wow, I didn't even know I needed that or I wanted that. And now it's like that's a part of my list. This person is like completely.

Shay Frago (55:58.69)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (56:06.446)
Just throwing it away.

Shay Frago (56:22.976)
becoming my list because I'm living through it. Yeah. And like, that's the real truth. And I think men and women, make lists. We make lists or we have this ideology of our perfect person, but realistically, our perfect person is the one in front of us because we chose for this to be our perfect person. As cliche as that sounds, but it's the truth.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:23.943)
Yeah, becoming my list that I didn't even know I needed.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:42.079)
Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. All right. Yeah, truly. We do believe in happy endings over here. Okay. What are two hard truths about commitment that most people won't want to hear, but definitely need to be said?

Shay Frago (57:04.55)
that it's like an outward experience. I think like what I mean by that is I think we think, like I'm committed to this person, but actually like you're committing to yourself at a level and like commitment means not running away from your own shit and like the other person's shit and staying in it. And so I think it's like commitment to me, a hard truth is that like true, true, true love is your, your biggest teacher and

Rebecca Espinoza (57:34.165)
you

Shay Frago (57:34.56)
Therefore it means not running away from yourself just as much as it's not running away from the other person when things get hard. And I think a lot of people see it as like that Disney princess fairy tale type of commitment and it's like that's that's a part of it but that's not real life.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:51.285)
Yeah, exactly. It is a part of it. We definitely have the princess, like fun, flirty parts of like commitment. Like why wouldn't you want to have like different seasons like that with your person? Yeah, like it's just like, especially when you do feel committed to another person, you feel more comfortable to go into this deeper state of like play that you like, that this other person like maybe hasn't seen in you or like no one has seen in you because you're so safe with each other and that comes out.

Shay Frago (57:58.439)
yeah.

That's important too. But yeah, I think commitment is like.

Shay Frago (58:16.119)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (58:22.217)
I think another truth is, I think people know this, but I'm just going to say it anyways, but it's work. And if you're not able...

to commit to work on a relationship, like just don't be in one. Like honest truth, like it's gonna be work, but it's maybe I feel like a softer word for that can probably be like.

Shay Frago (58:41.421)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (58:57.533)
It's expansion.

Shay Frago (58:59.534)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (59:00.885)
And with commitment comes expansion and expansion though can be very uncomfortable because before expansion there's contraction. So there's gonna be a lot of discomfort and commitment potentially. But like, gosh, I feel like the benefits that are reaped from that, like why wouldn't you wanna be in it? Especially when even when you think about like committing to like a business, right? Growing a business.

Shay Frago (59:16.46)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (59:30.805)
doing what you need to do to build that business. takes so much of you to do that. But the benefits that come from it when it's successful and when you actually put your heart into it, there's so many benefits that you can reap.

Shay Frago (59:45.501)
Yeah, yeah, think exactly. I think a better way to phrase what I was trying to say was that like commitment is committing to like a personal growth journey. And that could be commitment to your business, commitment to your romantic partnership, even commitment to your friendships. I think just a general sense of commitment, no matter what area of life you play it, it is committing to personal development of some sort, because it's gonna mirror it back to you and in a freaking romantic relationship, like that is your mirror.

Rebecca Espinoza (59:54.005)
Yeah.

Truly.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:01.845)
personal development.

100%.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:12.597)
100%.

Shay Frago (01:00:13.152)
Everything you don't like about them is probably something that you don't like about yourself, like where you're frustrated with what they're doing, like you probably are doing that too. And it's like, it's two of you literally facing shadows, demons, darkness.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:18.398)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:22.943)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:28.341)
Yeah, you know, and you know what? I do remember when my long term ex and I boyfriend, we broke up and I was single for so long. I was like, I'm just going to be with myself. want to like, I was committing to myself and I went so deep into my personal development journey. Like that is what kickstarted it in a way that I have never before. And every time after a big like ending with a partner or a relationship, one that I'm get really intimate with and it ends.

I always take an intentional pause for dating because I want to come back to me and see if there's anything that I need to work on just with myself before I open myself up again to another person because again, it takes on a fucking journey. But first I need to see is there anything I need to work on myself alone before I can well first I need to heal before I can go and do it again because you put you really put your heart through it when you really fucking put yourself in there and you're a feeler your heart.

Shay Frago (01:01:01.923)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:01:17.215)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:27.605)
goes through when there is an ending. So you need time to heal. But yeah, it's like when I was single, I was single and I was having so much fun, but I was also doing the fucking work, like legit legitimately doing the damn work.

Shay Frago (01:01:37.73)
Yeah. Same. Yeah. It's much easier to do by yourself. Yeah. So it's like, I'm just, don't, I didn't realize I had commitment issues until I got my dog.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:46.563)
yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:54.809)
my god, Athena.

Shay Frago (01:01:56.046)
I was like, oh my god, I'm committing to this being for like 15 years. And I was like, oh my god, I have commitment issues.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:02.549)
So she's not an easy one to commit to.

Shay Frago (01:02:05.71)
And then of course I got a dog that has special needs, so...

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:11.207)
Yeah, my special needs, she's a highly sensitive pup. She's an HSP.

Shay Frago (01:02:13.758)
Exactly. Yes. She gets anxious and stressed very easily. I have to monitor our surroundings at all times and all the things. That's what I mean by that. She's... Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:22.889)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:28.688)
gosh, has, she's, yeah, she's put you through quite a personal development journey.

Shay Frago (01:02:34.71)
Yeah, that's what I'm like, well, if I can commit to her, I can commit to when I that's but I'm not I'm not like, it's funny. I say that you guys but like legitimately, that's when I got her is when I realized like, commitment issues. And this is something that I wanted and had been thinking about for forever. And then I was like thinking about relationships. And I was like, yeah, it's like I had one foot in one foot out in dating.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:03.325)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:03:04.782)
I mean, I even experienced that at start of like my current relationship where it was just like, I want commitment and I'm as ready as I can be, but I'm like afraid to go all in because then that means having to share all of me.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:08.649)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:17.429)
Show it all. Show it all. Okay, is there another truth on your end?

Shay Frago (01:03:26.414)
You

Shay Frago (01:03:30.114)
I guess with commitment to the vision, as I've been saying, I think a hard truth on the path of commitment is that like most people are not it.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:38.761)
Mmm.

Shay Frago (01:03:41.394)
And I think that's just like a hard pill to swallow that most people you encounter are not it. They're not it.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:47.697)
a hard one to solve especially because there so many people in this world that you're going to be probably just yeah.

Shay Frago (01:03:51.758)
that you interact with. It's actually like go into the go into it. Like, these are things I wish I would have known when I was dating is go into it with being like, this person's probably not it, but I'm going to give them an opportunity to show me that they are because I feel like when you go in with that kind of energy, you're just going in with curiosity, which is ultimately what we need in the dating experience. Whereas like I know from my own experience, I always went in with like this person might be it.

and like, this person's gonna be the one, like that hope of them being the one, but it's like, I put so much pressure on myself and on this idea of the one that like, it made dating suck.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:04:34.869)
Yeah, because you get heartbroken every time.

Shay Frago (01:04:36.502)
Yeah, because the truth is most people are not it like you need to give them an opportunity to show you that they are and instead of like, it's such a delicate balance of like, yes, having a healthy mindset, and not being like a negative Nancy and being jaded but like, being really honest that like, no, most people are not going to be it for me because this is my vision. But I'm gonna give them the opportunity to show me who they are and be curious and get to know them because I want to have this experience.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:04.917)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (01:05:05.366)
And I think like it just puts a lot of pressure off of you, but like you are so clear for the most part on what you want. And so you're like, all right, let's see. Let's see what happens here. It's a very different energy. It's so nuanced because it's not being negative, but just being honest with reality. Most people are not it. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:16.66)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:22.129)
It's being pragmatic and being a realist instead of being the fairy tale princess head in the clouds kind of perspective, which it is supportive, especially again with the dating apps. How many dates did that person go on before you met them that week? And same with you. So it is a very honest expression.

Shay Frago (01:05:30.562)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:05:42.414)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:48.455)
Okay, let me see if I have another one. Last one.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:05:58.469)
See

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:03.413)
I don't know if I do.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:16.469)
Yeah, I guess I already said this one, but I do consider it a truth is the moment you have to question commitment, you're not in commitment. Like whether you're questioning it yourself or whether you're questioning it with or if the other you're questioning if the other person is committed to you, there is something that is not being met. And again, that's where the that's where the conversation of work comes in. Who's going to bring up the conversation?

Shay Frago (01:06:44.387)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:06:46.207)
who's going to be honest about it. So the moment, honestly, the moment commitment starts to waver, if you're tapped in to the entity that is your relationship, the moment commitment starts to waver, you are going to feel it. Be fucking real with yourself. You're going to feel it. You're not, and you can't just brush it off. Brushing off the stability of commitment is not safe.

Shay Frago (01:06:59.96)
You'll feel it.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:07:14.419)
So the moment you begin to feel that pulse of the commitment in a relationship to slow, bring it up. And it's not gonna be easy, but it's gonna suck even more when it just completely falls apart out of nowhere, quote, even though you knew it was gonna happen and you never had a conversation and it's like, quote unquote, abrupt. So I would say those are the two hard truths on my end. Yeah, I hope you gave.

You have some pretty good, some good nuggets again. Leave what doesn't work, take what does. And as always, I want to hear from you. Whatever resonated with you, please share with us in the DMs. And as always, please rate review this episode, share with a friend, spread the word.

Shay Frago (01:07:45.358)
Got some good nuggets.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:08:09.807)
Start the vulnerable conversations and build deeper connections. We really appreciate it. This is what helps us grow and just build this VVAC community. So thank you so much for being here with us and we'll see you next week.

Shay Frago (01:08:22.494)
you next time.