59. Coping With Life's Challenges and Stressors: Tools for Resilience and Ongoing Healing

In this episode of Vida, Rebecca and Shay celebrate the launch of Season 4, reflecting on their journey and the emotional challenges they've overcome. They discuss the themes of love, tenderness, and the complexities of stress and trauma, emphasizing the importance of self-care and understanding one's emotions. They share how stress uniquely manifests for them in their bodies and minds along with coping mechanisms, the importance of radical self-awareness, and the power of choice in navigating life's challenges. Through vulnerable personal stories and insights, they aim to normalize emotional experiences and encourage listeners to embrace their feelings. Rebecca and Shay also get into the impact of trauma on relationships, and the necessity of effective communication during difficult times. The duo emphasizes the significance of support systems and boundaries in navigating stress and trauma, ultimately highlighting the ongoing journey of healing and personal development.

Key Moments

• Stress and trauma are universal experiences.
• Coping mechanisms are essential for emotional health.
• We always have a choice in how we respond to life.
• Self-awareness is key to navigating life's challenges. Normalize the fact that we are human beings with big feelings.
• Experiencing trauma can manifest in various areas of life, especially relationships.
• Safety is a fundamental concern that underlies many stressors.
• Healthy communication is crucial in navigating trauma with others.
• Boundaries are essential for maintaining healthy relationships.
• Support systems outside of intimate relationships are vital.
• Healing is a lifelong journey that requires ongoing effort.

Resources:

• Definition of Trauma - APA 
• Definition of Stress - APA
• The Body Keeps Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk M.D. 
• Stutz Documentary on Netflix
• The Mountain is You: Transforming Self-Sabotage into Self-Mastery by Brianna Wiest

Brand Affiliates

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Season Four: Celebrating Milestones
• 2:11 Tenderness and Love: Navigating Emotions
• 5:23 Rebirth and Reflection: Starting the New Year
• 8:02 Stress and Trauma: Understanding Our Experiences
• 12:36 Defining Stress and Trauma: Insights from Psychology
• 16:08 Manifestations of Stress: Body and Mind Responses
• 20:33 Coping Mechanisms: Finding Balance in Turbulent Times
• 24:54 The Power of Choice: Navigating Life's Challenges
• 33:04 The Impact of Trauma on Relationships
• 45:47 Communication in Times of Trauma
• 56:05 Support Systems and Boundaries

Transcript

Rebecca Espinoza (00:01.793)
Hi everyone, welcome back to Vida welcome back to, or welcome to season four. We've...

Shay Frago (00:08.404)
I can't believe it's season four. It's crazy.

Rebecca Espinoza (00:12.237)
I know we had like a big little celebration moment, I guess over text and stuff, like hitting certain milestones once the new year started and then just like adding somewhat of a team member to VIDA. So just like little by little hitting milestones. And honestly, I'm just proud of us how consistent we've stayed with building what this is. Like we don't know who's listening out there obviously, and we don't know.

Shay Frago (00:38.158)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (00:40.695)
who this is landing with and if it's even landing with anyone, but it clearly is because I can see the stats on Buzzsprout. So it just feels really special to be here and be saying like, we're doing season four and we've just been consistent doing this long distance. Like Shay and I live in different states and yeah, I just, proud of us for getting to where we're at. And this is still only the very beginning of what we have planned for Vida and what we see for it. So that was a long winded.

Shay Frago (00:46.219)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:09.899)
way of saying to welcome back and we're really happy to be back here, be on the mic together. And once again, we just have some exciting and really impactful and influential people, guests, friends, and just people that we admire and look up to that are going to be on the season with us. And then just us doing what we usually do, doing our thing, just talking, conversing, and being honest and being vulnerable. Not much has changed with that.

Shay Frago (01:11.714)
Yes, yes.

Shay Frago (01:36.142)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:39.211)
Yes, but as usual before we dive in getting into our little little ritual here, but she como esta tu corazon? Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:49.594)
Mm. Well, yes, you know what's going on with my life. I feel like today I woke up very tender and feeling I wouldn't say like sadness or grief, just tender, just like moving through. No, like very big, normal human emotional pieces right now with everything that's going on in my personal life and just like.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:56.525)
Okay.

Shay Frago (02:11.628)
finding new levels of love, like what love feels like for myself, for my community, for my relationship, for the people in his life. And just realizing like, we did an episode, I think not last season where it's like, love is not enough, but love is also such a powerful like thing. And I think like,

Rebecca Espinoza (02:24.141)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (02:35.072)
the love that I've felt in my own heart for like my community and through this process. I'm just like, it's not enough. may not be enough for like it to sustain a relationship because there's so many layers to it. But I think it's one of those powerful things that I'm coming to in like this season of my life where I'm like, but it is such a powerful emotion and feeling and sensation to have that level of love and care in your life to go through turbulent times and to

Rebecca Espinoza (03:03.691)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (03:05.098)
just help you realize like that power of connection and like how you know we used to live way back when in villages and just like that's that's our survival but in like the most beautiful way and so that's that's how i'm feeling today.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:09.165)
you

Rebecca Espinoza (03:20.213)
Yeah, I feel like tenderness is usually what I've experienced to be tenderness is like that after experience of the big opening of like, and then that's why like, it's like a wound, right? It's like when you cut yourself in the beginning and then it's healing afterwards, it's like tender. So I feel like that makes sense. Or it's just like you had, cause you did have a big opening and a big, you know.

Shay Frago (03:30.926)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (03:39.83)
Yeah, that's a good analogy.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:47.533)
chasm of emotion, of emotion. So there was, of course there's tenderness and yeah, this concept of love. I love what you were talking about because I was literally laying in bed the other day. No, last night actually, I was falling asleep for some reason. The thought came to me. was like, love is so powerful and yet it's so fickle at the same time because then it goes back to like, yeah, it's not enough. There are certain things that are needed to.

Shay Frago (03:48.3)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (04:07.618)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:15.445)
withstand a relationship, any kind of relationship, but it's more than just love. So that's why to me, was like, wow, love is so strong and so powerful. It can move mountains sometimes, but it's also so fickle because you see, for example, these like relationships that people have been together for years and it's just like the love fades away or the certain kind of love that is needed to be in the relationship just fades away and then it's gone. It's like, and just like that. So.

Shay Frago (04:20.258)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (04:37.602)
Yeah, I know. It's all how we choose to, what's the word? I'm just kind of seeing the vision of if we could shoot love from our fingers is magic. It just kind of depends on how you want to shape it and move with it and allow it to flow through because I think that's a great point in love being fickle is that depending on our human experience, we could dilute what that means and then it becomes.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:51.422)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (05:06.954)
something that could just be extraordinarily painful.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:09.325)
Yeah, and season to season of life, right? We've all experienced different phases and faces of love. yeah.

Shay Frago (05:19.65)
Yeah. What about you? Como esta tu corazon?

Rebecca Espinoza (05:23.605)
Hmm. You know what? Let me check in.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:32.629)
I'm feeling reborn a bit. Yeah, yeah, I just. Yeah, the start of the new year was rough.

Shay Frago (05:35.854)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (05:43.822)
I know, I'm like, 18 days in and quite a lot has happened.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:46.797)
Jeez. And yeah, mean, the fires here in LA have created a collective grief and just heaviness for everyone here in LA, California, but then just like the world watching us, think too, and in that way. And also, yeah, different personal aspects of my life. I were feeling grief in the beginning of the year, but now there's a refresh.

Shay Frago (05:52.235)
You

Shay Frago (05:55.727)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:15.711)
And I think it also helped that I just had a really great bleed. Like I just really took care of myself this bleed. I'm like, sometimes you just need the physical letting go of and purging to then come out the other side and be like, I feel a new and reborn emotionally as well. And I'm doing a life audit right now and just like really looking at areas of my life where I'm like, wow, there's patterns here. OK, let's it's time to change that and feeling really inspired. So.

Shay Frago (06:20.91)
Like I'm day one.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:45.101)
I feel like there's percolation happening for certain seeds that are getting ready to be planted. yeah, I feel like this year is gonna be actually the counter to the last, to 2024. That's gonna bring a lot more light. I was in the underworld a lot last year. And I'm not saying I'm still not in it. I feel like I'm still wading the waters of the underworld, the murky waters. But...

I'm coming, my head's poking out and I'm coming out. I'm like coming out of the birth canal. Just like.

Shay Frago (07:16.621)
Yeah.

It's like your hand just came out. That's a good analogy.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:22.205)
No!

Rebecca Espinoza (07:25.981)
That's where I'm at. know, truth be told, we've both been going through a lot. This last...

Shay Frago (07:35.63)
know, end of 2024 served us life experiences that I think everyone goes through to some magnitude. It was just kind of like, well, I mean, no one signs up for these things, yeah. No, no, no one's like, this is what I.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:49.183)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:55.851)
Not, not like excitingly and consciously at least.

Shay Frago (08:02.026)
my human experience journey is going to be. And I believe like, you know, there's that like meme out there that's like God chooses his spiritual warriors because I know for both of us, we alchemize these experiences into purpose. And it's what birthed this episode. And it allows us to continue to become incredible human beings as individuals, but it also

Rebecca Espinoza (08:19.009)
We do.

Shay Frago (08:30.752)
allows us to serve the human beings of this world that wants to plug into our wisdom. So that's what today's episode is about.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:37.165)
Yep, yep, yep. you know, we're not going to get into specific, super specifics of what we've been going through, not entirely, but the short of it is, you know, we both have been experiencing big levels of stress and, you know, levels of trauma.

And sometimes when you're in it, you don't realize that it's either of those things. You're just like, this is life. We're just like going along. And then you're just like, holy shit. When you have a breakdown moment, you're like, I've been so my nervous system has been wrecked and frazzled. And that was for sure traumatic. And now I'm just learning how to adjust and readjust and be like in my normal day to day without feeling like on high alert. So let's talk about that.

Let's talk about first like what is even stress? Like I'll share what I found actually from stress and trauma because we all experience like you said, we all experience stress for sure, especially in this modern day world.

Shay Frago (09:43.302)
yeah. Being a human in today's modern day society is extremely stressful. You could literally stay in your house all day and be stressed to the max if you plug into social media. Just like, yeah, yeah, just like literally.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:48.557)
So fucking stress. And peace, chat.

social media, not even that. You're just like, my God, look at all my fucking bills I have to pay. Like everything, everything. just, yeah, for example, even just like this natural disaster that we had created tremendous amounts of stress to, of course, the people who were directly impacted. But now the people who are living in LA that are worried about like the toxins in the air and just like.

Shay Frago (10:08.27)
So yeah.

Shay Frago (10:15.551)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:16.833)
the economy, how this is going to affect LA and just like we already can't afford to live here. How is this going to impact our resources that probably just got depleted water? We're probably like LA is probably in a drought again. So like all these things, right, that are just different paramount levels of stress. And yeah, there's like internal stress, familial stress, job stress, existential stress, everything. And then there's the different levels of trauma that we may experience that then is conducive to stress, right?

Shay Frago (10:25.281)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (10:37.174)
everything. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (10:46.655)
First, before we talk about our own personal experiences with stress and how we respond to trauma and stress, I looked up on the American Psychological Association, like what trauma and stress is, just so we can put it in concrete words so people can really know and understand like, wow, that sounds familiar. I think I'm experiencing that. So trauma.

is basically an emotional response to a very overwhelming or terrible event like an accident, a crime, natural disaster, physical or emotional abuse, neglect, or experiencing certain violence or death of a loved one, war, and so much more. So think about those things, okay, that are happening that so many of us are probably experiencing or have experienced. And then after the event, shock and denial are usually common.

and longer term reactions include unpredictable emotions, flashbacks, strange relationships, and even physical symptoms like headaches or nausea or being unable to sleep. So that is what trauma is defined as. And then stress is defined by the same American Psychological Association as stress as a normal reaction to everyday pressures, but can become unhealthy when it upsets your day-to-day functioning. So that's really important right there.

Stress involves changes affecting nearly every system of the body, influencing how people feel and behave. By causing mind-body changes, stress contributes directly to psychological and physiological disorders and disease and affects mental and physical health, reducing quality of life. Now, I think we both have personal experience and also within ourselves, but within the people around us, of seeing how stress management and lack of cope.

Shay Frago (12:06.51)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (12:36.055)
coping with stress, right? You and I, fuck man, like the shit that we've been going through, obviously we're not comparing. There's people going, people in war, like in third world countries right now, right? But like right now we're living what we're living, we're served what we're served. We're showing up still. We're like even showing up on this podcast, you guys, we don't get paid for this, we're doing this because we love it. And it's like, we don't have to, we keep ourselves on a schedule, we work our everyday like jobs.

Shay Frago (12:43.106)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:03.105)
We take care of our families in the way we have to our relationships, like our bodies are meant like we're doing it. And like, how are we doing that? Is the question maybe. But let's talk a little bit about them. Like, yeah, what do you think about what I just shared and your personal perspective on trauma and stress?

Shay Frago (13:23.5)
I feel like my definition is pretty similar. I learned from one of my mentors in a program that I did that was all about like nervous system regulation and embodiment and things like that to like, care for ourselves during turbulent times because that's that is a part of the human experience as like, trauma is when your nervous system experiences something that's too much.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:26.113)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (13:50.026)
too fast for you to be able to process in that possible moment. And then just like, some of you may have heard about this book, but like there's the book out there that says the body keeps score. And it's like, you know, our bodies literally remember everything, like our nervous systems literally remember everything. And our brains are such powerful organs, like I have an obsession with the brain, I've said this before, but like, it will literally make you forget traumatic events until your nervous system and

Rebecca Espinoza (13:54.229)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:13.069)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (14:16.192)
where you are in life has the capacity to process what that is. Because otherwise you're in this chronic heightened state of stress and it could, yeah, just, it just like, that's why you see people go into really bad depressive states because they like literally cannot physically cope and function if you don't know how to process these things. I am very grateful that I've been doing like the internal work to become well-resourced.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:23.745)
You can't do anything.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:29.953)
Disassociation.

Shay Frago (14:43.256)
for like eight years now. So the reason why people look at me like, have no idea how you're doing everything you're doing right now. I'm like, well, it's because I have tools. I have a toolbox. I have a stress management box. Like I know the things that our human vessel needs in order to be able to cope with these big things that are coming and that I'm processing and knowing that like this too shall pass, you know, like.

having things that help me get through the sticky moments, because there's definitely sticky moments where I'm just like, I literally can only just get up today and get through the work day. And that's about all I have energy for. And sometimes, you just ride the waves and you learn to do that. But it does come from, I've done a lot of work. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about the personal growth and development work, because that's what

Rebecca Espinoza (15:34.677)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (15:36.802)
helps you be well-resourced, it helps you understand yourself, it helps you know what you need, and that's always gonna be changing and flowing, but at least if you have a baseline to operate out of, it makes it a little bit easier. So I feel like I really resonate with everything that was described there. That's just my version of saying it.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:51.437)
Yeah, exactly. I think an important part about the trauma piece is it's an emotional response. I really want, I think, to an event. And I think...

Sometimes that's confused because people can experience the same event and have different responses. And the same event might not be as traumatic to one person than it is to the other. So that's like something really important to remember about ourselves too, like, especially like, am like noticing about yourself. Am I more sensitive to like, am I just more sensitive? Because if you are, like that is an even more of an invitation to take care of yourself. I am very sensitive.

But I also consider myself very strong and because I was willing to accept my sensitivity and to understand that I have to fucking take care of myself so I can be very resilient. Because then I literally will be afraid to go out in the world and to experience life and I'll avoid and or I'll be like hyper anxious. So let's talk a little bit about how stress

Shay Frago (16:46.946)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:02.975)
and trauma manifest in our bodies and in our minds because the American Psychological Association even said so itself, like stress can take.

manifestation both physically and like mentally. So I know for like myself, one of the first things that gets really effective when I'm stressed is my digestion. It's my gut. Okay, just like a breakout. Yeah, like digestion gets so affected because and then you know, I find that really funny because the gut is the second brain.

Shay Frago (17:27.768)
Same. And my skin, my digestion and skin.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:42.303)
It's the second brain. It's also like your intuition. And the people say like, trust your gut. So that's funny that that's like what gets affected, but it'll literally slow down. And that's how know I'm like, I'm stressed. And then I look at what's going on in my life. I'm like, of course my gut is struggling right now. Like, look what's going on. And to me, that's a sign of like, have to regulate my nervous system more so I can then communicate. My mind can communicate to my body that we're safe so I can function properly.

Shay Frago (17:46.072)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (18:07.96)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:10.955)
And then another thing is like fatigue. I get very fatigued and I also get very impatient. So I guess that's more of like a mental response. And also I get anxious. I get anxious, I overthink. And then that's, I get stuck in this loop. then if I let it go even longer, if I'm overthinking, then I'll make impulsive decisions. Because I'm like, I need to solve this right now. I need to solve this situation. But it's coming from a place of anxiety and fear. So then I'm just making impulsive decisions.

Shay Frago (18:13.9)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (18:23.693)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (18:31.501)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:40.673)
So that is for me how it's responding physically. And then I also notice sometimes I'll fall out of my, I'll fall into bad habits, like I'll scroll more. And then I'm not doing as much of my my ritual practices. Like I'm skipping my, I'm not making as much time for like my morning meditations because I'm fucking exhausted sleeping in bed because I'm stressed or I'm slightly depressed.

Shay Frago (19:02.54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:04.853)
And I'm just like, now I don't have time to do my morning rituals, which is setting me up for the day. So I notice these loops and I was noticing them towards the end of the 2024. And then earlier this year that that was happening. And I was just like, pause, pause. And actually it was this last bleed that helped me get back into my intentional cycles and taking care of myself. I was like, I'm bleeding. Let's fucking relax as much as I can now. Didn't go out.

didn't socialize with people. I like, let's focus on me. Literally, I was loving up on my body so much, a womb massages, breath work, like sitting at my altar, meditating, praying, and just like what makes me feel connected to myself and to God and God, the fucking energy I was getting from that was insane. So it's like the subtle change, it's having the subtle awareness of like what has shifted in me. So.

curious how that shows up for you. feel like it's kind of similar.

Shay Frago (20:04.278)
Yeah, I would say it's very similar. I call it anxious belly, where like, my like, tummy just, I just feel that like pit in my stomach pretty consistently. And I just feel like, restless and agitated, like I can't really sit with myself because I'm like, I just like feel so uncomfortable in my body. And unfortunately, like I can't eat. And that then stresses me out more because I am someone who

Rebecca Espinoza (20:08.855)
Mmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:18.093)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:27.501)
Yeah, that does happen to you.

Shay Frago (20:33.842)
has just always aired on the smaller side so I can drop weight so easily which is not good for my system but then it takes me forever to put it

Rebecca Espinoza (20:37.323)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (20:41.912)
So I'm like sitting there forcing myself to eat, but like every time I eat, then I feel nauseous. So it's just like, I've gotten a lot better where I'm like, okay, like I know I switched to like liquid meals instead, cause it's a little bit easier for me and I'm getting the right nutrients so that my stomach doesn't like shrink too much and I don't deplete my system too much, but like that's what happens for me. And so when I noticed that I'm like, like.

Rebecca Espinoza (20:56.348)
Okay.

Shay Frago (21:06.604)
I start eating more soups because that's warming to my nervous system that helps my body relax and I'm getting the right nourishment. I'm so tired. Like I have to sleep a lot more than I usually do. And then I ruminate. Like I get anxious really badly. I get a flight response and then my brain will get stuck on one looping thought. And then I find myself

Rebecca Espinoza (21:08.332)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:22.282)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (21:33.472)
constantly researching how to fix the problem. And then it's like, yeah, yeah, it's like, how do I escape this feeling? you know.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:36.461)
Yeah, you want to go into solution or you're like, how do we get past this? Yes, it's the escape. It's more of the escaping than versus like the healthy resolution.

Shay Frago (21:47.95)
because it's, yeah, it's like uncomfortable to be with those heavy emotions. It's uncomfortable to not have an answer. It's uncomfortable to like have the unknown. And it's just like, but that's life. We literally don't know what the next five minutes is gonna bring to us. Like we just don't. And if we can learn to adapt to that, then it's like learning to adapt to whatever life is serving us because that is just a part of life, honestly. And so for me, it is that like,

Rebecca Espinoza (21:52.415)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Uncertainty.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:05.165)
Nope.

Shay Frago (22:18.188)
I research and I research and I research and I research to a point that that almost causes more stress because now I have too much information. And it's like, and like, now I'm more confused. I'm have, I can like, and I'm one of those people that can see every outcome depending on the move that like happens next, either on me or the people around me or what the situation brings. So then I tried to prepare for every possible avenue that life could take me and that's not good for us.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:24.758)
Yeah

and

Rebecca Espinoza (22:34.688)
Yes!

Rebecca Espinoza (22:46.157)
same.

Shay Frago (22:47.968)
And so it's just like, like I end up in this like cycle and then I'm in my head and I'm disassociated from my body, which is why I think I stop eating because like I forget that I've even in a human body. and I just get stuck in my head. And so when I noticed that energy percolating, I've some days I'm good about this and some days it wins, but like, I will literally get up and go take a walk and just like move the energy.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:58.999)
Yeah, because you get in your mind so much.

Shay Frago (23:17.384)
or I do breath work, it really is about moving from what's happening in your brain and like being in there and moving back into your body and slowly allowing yourself to ground back. And yeah, just regulating, but that's what happens for me. And then I do get irritable and then I disconnect from like, I stop showing up for my workouts as consistently. I'm...

Rebecca Espinoza (23:18.86)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (23:35.81)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (23:44.18)
you know, like kind of it's hard for me to show up on social media for my business. I am short with my friends because I just want to get through the message or I just want to get through the interaction and like, then I feel disconnected from my friendships. And then I could feel it, I can feel where I'm like, pulling away because I'm like, I like to I'd like, it's hard for me to like lean into and it's easier to collapse. It's much easier to collapse.

Rebecca Espinoza (23:55.703)
Same.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:06.487)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (24:10.562)
but that also doesn't help us because then the collapse harder to get through what you're getting through. So it's important to kind of have guardrails and maintenance systems and plans in place knowing these things about you, which is why I think it's important to know thyself.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:14.848)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (24:26.281)
know thyself and two things, you know, I to go off about the part you were talking about with, you know, we want to escape because of the uncertainty and being in the discomfort and just, gosh, I've been quoting, I've been quoting the documentary. Shay, have you seen it yet? It's called Stuts. I think you'd love it. I'm actually going to rewatch it and take notes, but it's Jonah Hill. He made a documentary about his therapist.

who literally saved his life and helped him overcome his shadows of being the overweight 14-year-old boy that was just literally publicly shamed, body shamed, and how that affected him his whole life, even regardless of the success that he had in the physical world. So he made a documentary about this man because of the impact. And he's just, this man is so incredible.

And I would literally, my heart was just warmed hearing his story. And he takes us through the methodologies that he uses with his patients. And it's a lot of stuff that we know, but I'm gonna rewatch it, actually take notes. he said, there's three constants in life. And he's very like no bullshit, no sugar coating, which is why I love him too. And he said, is pain, uncertainty.

Shay Frago (25:30.795)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (25:50.549)
and constant work.

Shay Frago (25:52.003)
Yeah

Rebecca Espinoza (25:53.643)
And honestly, not everyone can swallow that pill. Like you don't wanna hear that. Like the people who are all about spiritual bypassing, they're like, no, like we have to like joy and love and light. And like, we went through that. We went through that phase. Yeah, we're like, you're like, I was like, you're just being negative. Like, why are you saying that? Don't be negative.

Shay Frago (26:09.667)
yeah, where I'm like, don't want to go into this. So I'm just going to pretend that like...

No, like everything has a solution. It's like, well, yeah, but like you have to feel your feelings. You have to go through it in order to get to the other side.

Rebecca Espinoza (26:19.813)
Yeah, yeah, you have, you literally have to walk through the tunnel. It's like a baby being born. Like, first of all, a baby being born, if you think about it, I'm going on a tangent right now, but like, this is a great analogy. That seems painful for the baby, its head, the crown, and it is, it's like, it's pushing up against the canal. That is not enjoyable.

the baby and I'm sure it just would prefer to have stayed in the womb. It's nice and warm and just like cozy, no like harsh hospital lights and but then it's born and it experience like a whole new world right? So that's literally what we're doing every single time like we're just waking up and having a new day. We don't know what the fuck we're gonna go through. It's gonna be probably painful. There's definitely uncertainty and there's gonna be some level of constant work but it's what you do with it.

Shay Frago (26:47.109)
no.

Shay Frago (27:12.493)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:14.581)
it's what you do with it. So I wanted to bring light to that because you talked about the Uncertain team and also talking about

Okay, I lost it.

Shay Frago (27:28.814)
I feel like what comes through here and you say that is like the power of choice. Um, I remember when I was going through my NLP practitioner training that like, as humans, we give our power away all the time.

to like so many things outside of ourselves. And it's really important to remember that we always have a choice. And sometimes we need help making those choices. Like when we're struggling, sometimes we need help being able to see the way to that choice. But we always have a choice. And I think we've just been bred in our society that like,

Rebecca Espinoza (27:50.605)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (28:07.434)
life happens to us, and there's really nothing you can do about it. And it's like, that's not true. Life does happen to us and whatever it serves, we have zero control over. However, how we choose to respond, we do have control over. And how we choose to show up, we do have control over. And it's kind of like, find the methodologies and ways that allow you to kind of like feel your way through it, like not bypass.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:19.393)
Yes.

Shay Frago (28:34.4)
all of the angst or anger or fear or pain or whatever it is that's coming up for you, whatever life is serving. It's like, let yourself be in it. Maybe you only want to be in it 20 minutes. Maybe you want to be in it a full 24 hours. Let yourself have a human 24 hours and be all the things. And then when those 24 hours is a better, you like, you get back up and you're like, all right, this is, this is what I want to turn this into because that's the cool thing is we can turn.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:48.941)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:57.43)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (29:00.534)
all of it into something amazing if you want.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:03.324)
Yeah, yeah, if you want. I think a good question, I've been like even like subconsciously asking myself is like, do I want to be stuck? Like, do I know? Do I want to be stuck? Like, yes, this is happening right now. And I have to be in this for certain amount of time. And you'll know when you have to be in a certain situation for a certain amount of time, because you'll always try to do something to get the fuck out of it. And then like everything fails and you're just like,

Shay Frago (29:14.53)
Yeah, it's like, I don't want to be the victim to this. Yeah.

Shay Frago (29:29.369)
yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:32.045)
You're like overwhelmed by like, then you're overwhelmed even more because you're like, I'm doing everything. What's wrong with me? Like, I can't get out of this. And you're just like, right. Because I'm supposed to fucking be in this longer. But it's not because I'm a victim. It's because there's something here for me. So just be in it. And like you said, the human experience. But then eventually you're going to get to a point where like, do I want to be stuck? Do I want to be the person where like, this is happening to me and I'm going to be here forever? Absolutely fucking not. I don't, at least. Like, I don't.

Shay Frago (29:33.324)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (29:37.837)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (29:46.764)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (30:00.811)
Yeah, no.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:02.123)
So, and yeah, I think there is a balance between feeling it and just like honoring your human and also knowing like we're human, therefore we're actually powerful and we're able to like co-create with God where we're gonna go. And even like, I remember we have our group chat, like our waffle house group chat and like there was that one waffle that I sent where I felt like shit and I was like, all right, I'm gonna get on the video and I was.

Shay Frago (30:13.038)
create something from it.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:31.455)
like in tears and I was like, hey guys, I actually feel really terrible today and I just, I'm really grieving and I feel like shit. And what made me feel great today was literally just feeling the wind on my face and crying and letting myself be in it. And that was it. I was like, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm happy and great. Like I feel like shit right now. I'm crying in my car during my lunch break and that's okay.

Shay Frago (30:43.042)
Let it move.

Shay Frago (30:57.43)
Yeah, it is. And it's just like normalizing that. I think that's a part of this process, you guys, is that like, we live in a society that just like shames our emotions still kind of. And like, when you're going through intense things like

Rebecca Espinoza (31:01.791)
Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:11.341)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (31:18.296)
There's judgments, people have perceptions of how it should be or, you know, all of these things from the external world, but like just normalize the fact that like we are human beings and we're going to have big feelings and we're just going to feel like shit sometimes and that's okay. And we're not going to want to do things and we're going to hate people and we're going to want to throw things at people and we're going to like, you know, and we're going to like want to push someone off a ledge sometimes. And it's just like that, that's, that's life. Like that is a part of being human because like,

Rebecca Espinoza (31:32.717)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:39.827)
Throw a tantrum!

Shay Frago (31:46.484)
Nobody wants to feel these things. Nobody wants to like have to go through it. Like you kind of that's what we signed up for. It's like we we are on this planet choosing to live, choosing to create something from it. And that means needing to be with the big emotions. That means needing to be with the uncertainty. That means being with all of it. And so if you just like want to throw rocks, throw rocks.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:54.197)
In some ways we did.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:14.313)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (32:14.966)
If you want to imagine that that's someone's face for the day, go ahead. Like whatever's going to help you. And it doesn't make you wrong or bad or anything. It makes you human. And of course, like let that be intentional and like turn it into something if you want.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:25.025)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:31.669)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. you know, think there's, there's, everyone's different and I feel like there's different areas of life that create more stress. And when we experience certain trauma in certain areas of our lives, it creates more stress depending on who you are. And yeah, I'm wondering, like, I mean, I think I know the answer because...

But I'm wondering like what areas of your life do you notice when there's trauma or stress that it like manifests even more internally for you? They feel it.

Shay Frago (33:03.758)
I would definitely say my relationships. It's like, if there's something off in any single one of my relationships, it like, is really hard for me to cope with. I would say that area is the hardest. And then I would say secondary to that would probably be money. Work.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:24.301)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (33:28.674)
I'm grateful that I've always, I don't know, work has always kind of been my outlet. So it's not normally the cause of my stress. Sometimes it can be, but for the most part, work is like the one area of my life that I feel like I've always kind of been able to go to regardless of what's happening and help me get through if I was financially stressed or having stressors in my relationships and like work is what keeps me going. So I'm like grateful for that. But yeah, I say those two areas.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:44.045)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:50.157)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:56.385)
You know what? It's so funny because I feel like if you ask anyone, those would be the top three things. And I just like wonder why. Like I know when I know when I've gone to like even like psychics and like readers, they've told me like the main three things that you will come to me about are work, money and relationships and health. You know, that's I think another that's like a big stressor. think for like, for example, there's certainly like health things that I'm that I experienced that for sure have

Shay Frago (34:02.451)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (34:18.754)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:25.773)
create stress and it's all connected in some ways though. Like that health thing, if I had more money, I could take care of better my health better. I like my health is gonna affect my relationships and vice versa. So like, I wonder like why that those are the three main stressors probably has to do something with survival, like relationships.

Shay Frago (34:37.996)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (34:46.476)
Most likely. I mean, we used to not, we used to live in communities and we used to not even have money in this world. And then we didn't really work to obtain money. It was sort of like, it was always a community in a village. Like everybody played their role and would trade. And so like everything was collaborative where I feel like where we are in society now is like.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:52.949)
Hmm.

No.

Shay Frago (35:16.142)
It's far from collaborative. So it's kind of like, think that would make sense in today's modern day society. It's like, if you want good relationships, you have to find them. You're not born into them anymore. If you want a good job, you have to fucking work hard for it. You're not, your gifted talents are no longer valuable anymore. You know, and it's like, if you want to have a successful life in today's modern day society, you need money to some capacity.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:17.313)
Far.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:27.285)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:34.719)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:42.871)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (35:43.096)
So it's kind of like, I think it does root down to survival.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:45.517)
And safety, the money has to do with safety too. for example, again, I keep using because it's a perfect example right now. I think the fire is that it has highlighted currently where our society is at because LA is a big reflection of where our modern day society is at. Like we're one of the biggest hubs of the developed world and

Shay Frago (35:56.717)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:07.507)
There were very wealthy people during, you know, the Malibu and Palisades fires that were hiring private firefighters to just focus on their house. That is a huge luxury to be able to do that, to just like hire someone. And actually my mom, she cleans this guy's house who has a house in Malibu. So she texted and was like, my God, like, are you OK? How are you? He's like, yeah, we're fine. Like, it hasn't reached us over here. And we're actually like hiring a private.

firefighting team right now just to be outside of our house and like man our house. I'm just like what? And that's money that is actually creating safety. So no shit that money is like a stressor and you know what? There's like a parallel even like of like okay if I have money it's gonna make allow me to have a family because now to have a family.

Shay Frago (36:40.021)
Yeah, that's wild.

Yep.

Shay Frago (36:57.891)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:58.473)
It costs a lot of money that is part of your having a family is part of your community and your relationships. So they're all fucking interconnected. And I think the core of it then is what I'm a philosophical circle that we're getting to here is like the big stressor is probably safety. The main one.

Shay Frago (37:06.498)
So yeah.

Shay Frago (37:16.234)
I think so. Yeah, we're gonna boil it down to a thing. Which makes sense because if your nervous system does not feel safe, your alarm bells go off and then you go into the slight fan freeze response and all comes back down to trauma and stress, which is everything we're talking about. The circle of life.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:25.291)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:31.352)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. And that's the perfect, like, we just, I think we just solved one of the biggest questions. No, I'm kidding. That's not what we do here. But we do talk a lot about relationships here. And you did mention we both agreed that,

Shay Frago (37:41.092)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:53.983)
relationships when our relationships are stressed or there's a form of trauma in our relationships, that's where we begin to really feel it internally. And I'm curious, how does stress in general or trauma in general have like affect our relationships? Like, let's talk about that and like in what way and how do we actually navigate to ensure that it doesn't hinder our relationships?

Shay Frago (38:19.808)
I mean, I think it comes back to like how we explain how it affects us, which then in turn affects how we show up in the relationship and depending on how bad it is for you or the other person experiencing that stress and trauma is affected and being able to show up. It's like when you stop showing up.

your relationships are no longer nourished. And then if your relationships aren't being nourished, then that's going to create ruptures. And then it starts to create fights. And I think like...

I feel like that's why there's so many divorces nowadays, or that's why a lot of, at least in our millennial generation, a lot of us don't feel close to our parents because our parents didn't have healthy coping mechanisms and kind of couldn't show up for us. And then now that we're adults, like, why would we want to like be around you? You know, like I've heard that and I've seen it and I've witnessed it in people. And I just kind of think like, if you can't show up and

you're letting, you're unintentionally letting other people down and unintentionally not meeting other people's needs and unintentionally creating trauma for them and stress for them. And so it's like, you're not doing it on purpose. Like if we're not well, how can you really show up? And that's why it's important to like understand that because there's going to be a level of repair that needs to happen in your

Rebecca Espinoza (39:34.505)
Mm-hmm. yeah.

Shay Frago (39:51.328)
important relationships when times of stress or traumatic experiences happen. And that's why, you know, every personal development thing out there is annoying as it is, it all starts with you. So you have to be able to understand that, like you never intend, we never intentionally try to hurt people, at least I believe that and

Rebecca Espinoza (40:13.398)
No.

Shay Frago (40:14.506)
when you are not doing well, that's gonna, it's going to hurt someone else, unfortunately, and because you like you love each other, you care about each other. And that means just kind of like having that into the back of your mind, because there's going to be rupture and some relationships can bounce back from that and some can't, depending on each of your guys's coping mechanisms and how you navigate times of stress and things like that.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:19.371)
Absolutely.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:33.581)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:40.631)
Yeah, again, knowing how you respond to this is, yeah, the mountain is you, right? who's the author of that? Brianna Weist. We will link that in the show notes. It's amazing. It always starts to feel like you are the first mountain that you have to climb and overcome to be able to, you know, summit all of the other mountains that you're gonna be faced with. And...

Shay Frago (40:49.358)
Brianna Weist. It's one my favorite books.

Rebecca Espinoza (41:07.859)
We just earlier listed off how we respond to stress and all of these things. It took a long time. I'll speak for myself for me to understand that and feel comfortable to be like. I think to even vocalize that to like another person, to say this publicly and to to to like catch myself in the cycle and be like, I'm doing that thing right now. Let's stop that. How can I how can I now just go back and like divert into a path that's more healthy? That is.

Shay Frago (41:22.274)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (41:29.845)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (41:37.023)
a skill and it's one that takes practice. And this is why like we will probably be a broken record here, but fucking go get those skills. Like learn how to do that. Either if it's through like you're here listening to this podcast, listening to our stories, like get a therapist, like get someone who can hold you accountable and like really help you gain new skills, like invest in yourself in that way. Even if it's buying a book that can help you like hold yourself accountable, because it's so

Shay Frago (41:38.303)
yeah.

Shay Frago (42:04.236)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:06.679)
worth it because before we were self sabotaging both of us, Che, like with our cycles and just like not knowing we were stressed and responding from these places of fear and making these impulsive choices and just continuing the cycle of chaos, right? It took, mean, Che, like you said, you've been doing this for eight years. I've also, yeah, I think been on this path for six, seven years. So.

Shay Frago (42:28.106)
Yeah, and I wouldn't say it was until the last three or four years that I really developed the skill set and put it into practice. Yeah, it's like...

Rebecca Espinoza (42:31.361)
the last few years that yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:37.805)
where you're like, I'm gonna look at my shit. yeah. And like, if you're gonna develop these skills to be the bearer of bad news, you know, it means you're gonna have to look at your shit. It's not, you're not just like, oh, like, let me just like collect these skills or just for no reason. No, you're gonna have to know why you need those certain tools and which ones work best for you and for what reason.

Shay Frago (42:53.762)
Yeah, there's no way around it.

It means get to know yourself.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:07.443)
And it's gonna mean knowing that inner child that needs that what, it needs, like knowing that shadow and like what it needs and just like, you gotta get in there. And I don't think some people realize that they're just like doing breath work and just like, okay, let me just breathe for like five minutes and this is enough. It's no.

Shay Frago (43:23.35)
You cannot, yeah, it's like you cannot bypass your human psyche period. Your brain remembers everything, whether or not you ever want to acknowledge it. And it's there, whether you ever not want to acknowledge it. yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:27.092)
No.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:31.339)
Yeah, yeah, it's

No, it's there. Like I've gotten to a point where I'm just like, when I go to therapy, I'm just, I literally tell my therapist, now I found an incredible therapist, keeping her for as long as I can keep her. But like when I was looking for therapists, I was like, look, I mostly know what are my problems and I'll list them off. Like now I just need your help to help me overcome them. But, then like, they'll always be like, wow, like you're actually very self-aware. I'm like, yeah, but my problem is that I can't like,

hold myself accountable to get to the next steps and I stay in the cycle. But I know that about myself, that's why I need your help. But then you always end up discovering new shit anyway.

Shay Frago (44:06.05)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (44:13.706)
Always. Yeah, like I love my therapist. I started working with her, what, like I think two years ago, and then I'm working with her again. And it's like, I'm still, yeah, I still learn about myself, things that I thought I overcome. They still come up. And I'm like, yeah, that happened. So it's happening again. You just keep accessing like new layers of it.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:17.197)
you

Rebecca Espinoza (44:29.387)
Yeah. For sure.

It's like same, same, but different.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:40.567)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (44:41.826)
Because I think the truth is and something that it was really hard for me to to accept about like the healing and growth journey and like what it means to be human is that like our healing is forever. And I was like, No, I just I just want to be fixed. I just want to fix this. But like, that's, that's not how this works. And I think the sooner you can embrace that, like,

life is gonna ebb and flow and I always kind of think of it as like an ocean and every moment of life is a drop in the ocean but it's so vast and infinite like we literally never know how deep that ocean goes but it's still beautiful and magnificent no matter what and like we still want to hang out at the ocean we still want to like go play it still brings us joy so it's like that's kind of what healing and growth is to me.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:17.718)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:29.907)
Go deeper into those so you know the fuck is out there. You're like, OK, this is getting a little scary. But that's that's life.

Shay Frago (45:32.11)
Yeah, Mm-hmm, there's that too. But that's, mean, I always said growing when you first start to do it actually feels like breaking and that's why most people don't like doing it.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:47.913)
Mm-hmm. It does feel like breaking. It literally feels like you're, it's a tower. It's the tower card from Tarot. You gotta crumble. You gotta crumble. But something that you said that you kind of lightly touched on that I wanna get into a little bit more is kind of navigating trauma with another person and in relationship. like sometimes you experience trauma

with other people.

what is that gonna do to your relationships? know, how is that? There's a difference between like, okay, you experience your own trauma and then it's affecting your relationships, right? Like I know for myself when I'm experiencing stress, I'm kind of, or trauma or stress, I'm kind of like, wanna pull back. There are moments where I wanna pull back. And luckily, you know, with my dad's death, I had you guys who were constantly checking in and I needed that because I wasn't.

Shay Frago (46:30.552)
Right.

Rebecca Espinoza (46:48.685)
reaching out really, it took me a really long time to finally even like pick up the phone and call one of you and like just cry on the phone because I needed it. And I like even this with this last week, I was like experiencing some stress or like two weeks ago and I've noticed I was like, oh, like I haven't really been talking to my friends that much or like I haven't seen my friends that much. I'm like, oh, I'm doing that thing. And I'm like, OK, I'm going to be intentional. I feel better now. I had a reset. I'm going to go schedule.

some days to see my friends. But I think there's a very nuanced experience of experiencing trauma with another person, which you kind of just experienced and I just experienced with my family actually, with my mom and my brother with the passing of my dad. my God, that will, that is a whole other fucking thing because not only are you navigating how you respond to trauma, you're trying to navigate in relation with how the.

other people respond to trauma and how it's going to affect your relationship. And I was actually listening to this podcast where the death of a child in a marriage, like a young child, is actually leads to high rates of divorce because it's highly traumatic. But they were saying it's not, the doctor was saying it's not the death, it's not the trauma that leads to the divorce. It's their lack of the ability to

Shay Frago (47:59.635)
yeah, I'm sure.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:11.821)
navigate the trauma together to communicate. That is what leads to the divorce. And that is what leads to any end, of a breakup of a relationship.

Shay Frago (48:13.004)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That's, I feel like any, and it's like the people don't have the coping skills, like don't have the skills or are not willing to acquire the skills or develop the skills during that time. yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:31.021)
So let's talk about that because I know it's fresh for both of us. Like how we're navigating like trauma with people that we experienced it with and what's the nuances of it, the challenges and also like what the mirrors that have been reflected back to you.

Shay Frago (48:51.758)
I feel like the number one thing that I've come back to is not taking it personal. I kind of think of that book, The Four Agreements, right? Like take nothing personally is one of his four agreements. and like, be impeccable with your word. Like, I can't remember the other two at the moment, but

Rebecca Espinoza (49:01.933)
Hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:05.836)
That's a good one.

Shay Frago (49:15.694)
I feel like not taking it personal is the most important skill set to navigate when you're in any sort of relationship with someone, whether it's like a friend, your partnership, a family member, and even a co-worker.

Not that I think you go through as many traumatic experiences with coworkers, but like I have. So I'm like, so like it does matter. And like if this relationship matters to you and it's important to you is like remembering like you're having your human experience, they're having their human experience. How they respond to you is almost always never a reflection.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:38.093)
You might, yeah, you might, yeah.

Shay Frago (49:57.642)
of you, it's whatever they're experiencing. And I think it's really hard and very easy to get like lost in the abyss of the stress and the trauma that is experienced around you in a relationship to be like, how could you possibly say something like that to me? Or how could you possibly show up that way?

you know, like to internalize it because you have your own wounds and scars that are being opened up again from past things. So it's going to bring stuff up for each of you and how each of you show up and respond and treat each other is ultimately a reflection of how, how well you've navigated your internal landscape. And so I think having that awareness of like where you are versus where someone else is and not in like this, I'm against you, you're against me type of energy, just like,

Well, sometimes one of you is going to have to be the leader of the dynamic if you're more well resourced or you're a little more self aware of something or you understand something about yourself more. And it's really annoying. I go won't deny it. Like I'm definitely one of those people in majority of my relationships, give or take a handful where I know that because of the level of work I've done on myself, I have a level of awareness like more.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:50.699)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (51:15.17)
like just more awareness of like what that other person might be experiencing. Cause I see an old, yeah, that like I see old parts of me in them where I'm like, I remember being in a same, same, but different type of season of my life before I had the awareness that I do now. And it's like, can sometimes be a hard pill to swallow to be like, okay, like I have to be the person who puts the sword down. I have to be the person to put the armor down.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:18.753)
Yeah, before they even know it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Shay Frago (51:41.012)
I have to be the person to kind of like lead to this dynamic even if I don't want to because like if I don't, we will self-combust and this relationship will rupture. It'll, it won't be good. And like, this is not something, that is not a path I'm willing to take. I am willing to embrace it if that's the path that I'm meant to take. But if it's like, it's just the trauma that's coming out and it's the stress that's coming out and you're navigating that.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:49.623)
Hmm.

Shay Frago (52:06.99)
I think understanding to not take it personally and then also having grace with yourself and giving yourself time and space when you need it are the number two things that have helped me get through my like this current season of my life is just like establishing the boundaries that I needed to to return back to my most regulated state and my higher self's perspective not my like traumatic lens and knowing that like okay like

Rebecca Espinoza (52:13.899)
Yeah, oof, time and space.

Shay Frago (52:36.278)
I have things to process, so I'm going to have to come back to this conversation. Or right now, I might make an impulsive decision because I'm in a heightened state. So I'm going to take some time for me. And when I come out of it, I'll be back. knowing all of those things helps me navigate it and then not taking anything in how they respond personally. And it's a practice, an everyday practice during heightened times.

Rebecca Espinoza (53:04.781)
Yeah, the boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Like we've been a broken record on that. feel like throughout the podcast and I feel like, but it's for a reason. And I feel, I feel as if boundaries has become definitely a buzzword in the personal development world, but it's knowing what it means to you and understanding like boundaries are there to keep you safe, both you and the other person and the relationship that you're creating and

Shay Frago (53:25.132)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (53:31.689)
I think that's definitely something I've very much had to create some like strong boundaries as well throughout this time of experiencing trauma with these with, you my family and understanding like you have to take care of yourself because at the same time, I think what's also like

Depending on the person that you're going through this trauma with, think you experience this as well, know, wanting to support without wanting to self-sacrifice.

Shay Frago (54:02.476)
Yeah, it's the codependency patterns that we all have to some degree. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (54:07.169)
Yeah, like I think supporting is important, supporting each other, right? Like, especially if you're going through something together in this way, depending on what the trauma is, like it's so nuanced, but like, you know, the death, the death of a family member, which is what I experienced, or like if you're always the death of a child, of a parent, which I know nothing about, but it's just like, I'm sure you'll want to be able to, you'll want to support each other, right? But if you don't even know how to do that for yourself, how are you going to do that with other people without

sacrificing yourself. So it's knowing that nuance balance and talking about it and communicating it. Like I definitely had to have these conversations where I was like, I need to, I'm supporting and I want to support right now and be here and have these conversations. But also I can't be the person that's going to make you the happy person anymore. Like I like it's not on me. I'm here to support.

but I'm also like, I'm not gonna strip myself bare to try to make you happy. And it's just not gonna be sustainable for anyone. So I think that's important. What I've learned is support with each other, but also without self-sacrificing. And that's a very delicate dance, very delicate dance. I'm trying to think, is there anything else? I think...

Shay Frago (55:25.784)
to dance.

Rebecca Espinoza (55:36.301)
At the core, like communication, like radical, honest communication. And a lot of the times, you're not gonna wanna hear what the other person wants to say maybe, or it's gonna be hard for what the other person, it's gonna be hard. So if you don't know how to do it, enlist someone that can help you go to therapy together. Like that's an option. Or you go to therapy.

Shay Frago (55:39.021)
Mm-hmm.

Shay Frago (55:51.118)
Yeah, it's like being willing to have the hard conversations.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:05.537)
and then figure out some, yeah, some healthy mechanisms to bring into the relationship to communicate. As Shay said, sometimes there needs to be a bigger person that's gonna take the lead and then bring the shift and change. So that I would say for me. I don't know, is there anything else on that topic navigating that together?

Shay Frago (56:08.354)
healthy ways to communicate.

Shay Frago (56:35.242)
No, I think like that's how you do navigate it. then, I mean, I feel like this is kind of a given, given everything we've been talking about, like you need your own support systems in order to be able to go through something with someone. And that could look at like that could be a therapist, it could be friends, support groups. Yeah, it just kind of depends on like how you want to.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:45.485)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:49.571)
yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (56:55.863)
support group. Yeah.

Shay Frago (57:01.142)
have your support system. So I think it's like having your outside support system when you're navigating something with people or someone in your intimate relationships is important because if it's like just the two of you, that can get really sticky because you have nowhere else to kind of like let that energy out. And I think it's important that we also have safe spaces to to let those things out. So like choosing

Rebecca Espinoza (57:15.021)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:21.879)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:29.367)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (57:30.764)
your support system outside of however, like whatever you're navigating with the people in your life, I think is equally as important.

Rebecca Espinoza (57:35.789)
Absolutely. Absolutely, I agree with that. There's one last, but I want to add to this as well. It's actually from Meg, Meg O'Neill from her course that we were watching. And she recommends this just in general for having conversation and just giving in some ways, like expressing yourself. And obviously if there are heightened moments and situations, discussions and arguments and something comes out the way

it's not meant to come out because again, if you experience these really intense moments together, a lot of that, that's gonna happen a lot. The number of times I've blown up and just been like, my God. But like something that needs, that is so supportive and that I'm holding myself accountable to do more is when that happens, when I'm just like, I respond in a way that I'm like, that was not conducive to creating healing and what we're trying to heal from together is say,

Can I try that? Can I try that again? What she says because she's Australian is, I have another go at that?

Shay Frago (58:39.992)
Can I have a little bit of that?

Rebecca Espinoza (58:42.935)
But for me, I'm just like, can I try that again? Because that's not how I wanted to respond. But again, that can only happen if you have the self-awareness of knowing that I just responded in a way that is not in the way that I want to be, and that is probably gonna create more damage and hurt in our relationship. I don't wanna do that. And bringing me to put your ego down and be like, well, I fucked up right now, and just be like.

can I have another go at that? And it's so simple, but I think it can be really healing in a relationship. And I'm even like internally, sometimes I say, I'm like, I need to have another go at that. And then I just try it again when I communicate. So.

Shay Frago (59:26.518)
Yeah, yeah. I also love in that chair, like in that same course, she talks about, especially as females. So I think this is more for like the females out there when you're navigating communication is like, sometimes we just want to be heard and seen. We don't actually need a solution. And like men like want to solve and give a solution. And like, if we think back in historic times,

Rebecca Espinoza (59:43.019)
Yeah.

So.

Shay Frago (59:54.348)
when we lived in villages and stuff, there's research out there that just from like...

our DNA as females, we were berry pickers. So we had to know all the fine details and specifics of the land and nature so that we knew these berries were poisonous, these were not. So like, it was on us to like, need the details. So when we storytell or we express, it's with all the details, but sometimes those details are not important. They're just a part of our landscape. Whereas like men back there and like their DNA, like they just needed to know like, what's the important detail so that I can like...

save the village or save my wall, you know, exactly. It's just like they just need the deep, they just need to know the, the thing that's important. Yes. So when you are communicating, at least if it's like in a romantic relationship, something that I've learned to navigate and is that there are definitely moments where I'm like, I literally, like usually will like word vomit a ton of stuff and then he'll be like,

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:31.45)
That one deer I need it.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:00:37.677)
that one thing, the hyper focus, yeah. Hyper focus, yeah.

Shay Frago (01:00:58.956)
That was a lot. like, what, what do you want? Like, I'm not sure what you want. And I'm like, I'm like, actually, I actually don't need anything. I just needed to say all of that. So just like, that's all just thank you for listening. And I've been learning that about myself. Is that like, yeah, sometimes I just need a word vomit and say all my emotions and I just want you to hear it. And I just, then I just need you to give me a hug. And then it's like,

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:05.473)
He's like, whoa.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:26.913)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:01:28.098)
That's it. And then there's gonna be other times that I'm saying things and I'm learning to be like, this is what's important for you to know is like, what I need you to know is this and like, this is what I would ideally need some sort of action. So those are some other things to help you navigate tough times in a romantic relationship.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:34.743)
concise.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:44.447)
Mm-hmm. It's great communication right there, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:01:51.573)
Yeah, I feel like a man and woman kind of our brains are different. Our brains are so different. And they're like you said, their science behind that. We're better multi-taskers. You know, there's science that says that. So I'm sorry, guys, men out there. But it's true. Science says it. So that's a whole other thing. I would love to talk about that in another episode. But there's a strength and strengths for each. Right. So, yeah. But OK.

Shay Frago (01:01:54.764)
Yeah, we're different.

Shay Frago (01:02:02.827)
for sure.

Shay Frago (01:02:09.198)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:21.069)
I think we went in pretty deep on that and got some great nuggets. Oh, I guess the last thing. Do you want to talk about the resources that you used or should we get into that? Or we kind of tapped into it. Yeah, okay. Okay, yay. So we went pretty deep in that episode and I feel like we touched on some really tangible just real life experiences to take away, leave what works or take what works, leave what doesn't.

Shay Frago (01:02:34.19)
feel like we gave them, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:02:50.861)
Is there anything else on your heart Shay that you want to share before we close up?

Shay Frago (01:02:50.892)
Yeah.

Shay Frago (01:02:59.148)
No, I feel complete.

Rebecca Espinoza (01:03:00.245)
Yeah, me too. Okay, well, thank you everyone for being here with us, just choosing to ride the waves in this life together and we'll see you next week.