57. Love vs. Values: What Matters When Trying to Make a Relationship Work?

In this episode of Vida, Shay and Rebecca delve into the complexities of navigating grief, new relationships, and the impact of conflicting beliefs on personal connections. They share personal experiences of loss and emotional fluctuations while exploring how relationships can serve as pivotal teachers in life. The conversation transitions into discussing the challenges posed by differing beliefs in relationships, particularly around spicy topics like politics, religion, and values. Ultimately, they reflect on the importance of communication, compromise, and the realization that love alone may not be sufficient to sustain a relationship. In this conversation, Shay and Rebecca explore the complexities of beliefs, particularly focusing on how to navigate compromising beliefs, the impact of non-negotiable beliefs, and the challenges of people-pleasing in discussions. They emphasize the importance of effective communication strategies, compassion, and understanding in conversations about differing beliefs, advocating for patience and curiosity in interpersonal relationships.

Key Moments

• Relationships can be both a source of joy and challenge.
• Holding contrasting emotions is a skill that can be developed.
• Communication is key in navigating differing beliefs.
• Love may not be enough if core values clash.
• Compromise is essential in maintaining relationships.
• Personal growth often comes from navigating difficult emotions.
• Beliefs can be deeply personal and vary greatly among individuals.
• People-pleasing tendencies can hinder authentic communication.
• Effective communication requires dropping emotional charges before discussions.
• Understanding the other person's perspective is crucial for healthy discourse.
• Compassion and curiosity can lead to deeper understanding in conversations.
• It's important to recognize when to walk away from heated discussions.
• Real change often occurs in personal, intimate conversations rather than public platforms.
• Identifying the energy behind beliefs can reveal their significance.

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Chapters

• 7:15 The Complexity of Relationships
• 12:27 Conflicting Beliefs in Relationships
• 19:36 Love vs. Values in Relationships
• 29:29 Navigating Compromising Beliefs
• 35:51 The Impact of Non-Negotiable Beliefs
• 41:40 People-Pleasing and Speaking Up
• 46:18 Effective Communication Strategies
• 52:42 Compassion and Understanding in Conversations

Transcript

Shay (01:02)
Hello, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Vida the podcast. We have been having so much fun being back in the studio, connecting with you guys and bringing you some new, some new goods. And as usual, before we get started on today's topic, this one has been on our heart for a little while and feels very much alive and present. I think for both of us in various different ways within our relationships. And of course there's always a theme with relationships, but as usual,

Before we get started, Becca, como esta tu corazon?

Rebecca Espinoza (01:35)
My heart is feeling very open. I think there is a mix of a constant... This last week there's been a constant fluctuation of emotions and experiences. Yeah, my dad passed away. It's been a week or over a week now.

So I've talked about that journey a little bit with his cancer and it took me a while to think open up about it on here. But yeah, I think we have our community here and I want to be honest about life because this is Vida This is we're talking about life. Yeah, so my dad passed away on the 15th of October and there's been a wave of emotions moving through the grieving process. Death and grief have been...

Shay (02:04)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (02:31)
just pivotal teachers for me since the beginning of the year. So I've been moving through that and of course with my family and I've been really fortunate to have the community to have you, you you called me the moment I texted our group chat and so did Erin and Rory and that was, you know, being held by my people and physically there by my family as well being held. So that's been a gift to have that and just

Shay (02:54)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:00)
Yeah, that Los Muertos is coming up. So there's a mix of emotions there. You know, putting my dad on the altar and it's going to be only my experience. I'm going to be do it for myself to honor him. So, yeah. And then there's also lot of excitement happening with just new, new seeds being planted. I'm dating and I met someone incredibly wonderful and just being in the

Shay (03:02)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (03:29)
Being in like the, I don't know, just this bubble of, you know, getting to know someone I think is balance for my heart and what it needs. And intimacy has been so healing and nourishing for me during this time. So I'm feeling very open and because of many things, the grief, but also the excitement of a new relationship and potential new work opportunities.

So that's where I'm at and I'm really happy to be back here recording for Vida taken some time off just because we were both going through some stuff.

y como esta tu corazón.

Shay (04:11)
I think all over the place right now. I'm definitely navigating a lot personally as well and been experiencing a lot of anxiety around it, which I think makes sense. yeah, I think I'm experiencing the anxiety whilst also being present with things that are coming up like fear. I would say a lot of fear and worry.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:14)
Yeah.

Shay (04:41)
and needing to be with those parts of me. And it's not something that I haven't navigated before in terms of those emotions, not necessarily the situation that's bringing it up. However, I think because I know how to be with those emotions, like I'm able to discern and not let it take over or project into my life, because I think that'd be very easy to do right now. And it's a delicate balance, I think, in how I need to show up for myself.

Rebecca Espinoza (04:52)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (05:11)
have my support system, but then also be able to show up for the other person that I'm navigating this with. So it's definitely been kind of a lot the last week. then I feel like with the season changing and all of that kind of stuff, I've been a little bit lower energy. And I feel like I don't know if I'm getting sick or if it was just like, you know, things coming up. It's just been a very human week and

Rebecca Espinoza (05:40)
Yeah.

Shay (05:41)
think right now I'm just like, okay, today I taught at the studio, I had a lot of fun, I didn't sleep very well so I am running on fumes a little bit. But then the annual Halloween party with my neighbors is tonight and I'm really looking forward to that. So it's sort of just like in the pockets of moments where I have the things to look forward to. I'm fully taking advantage of that and I have my tools and resources that support me with me navigating my own.

Rebecca Espinoza (05:46)
Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Exactly.

Shay (06:11)
side of the street and overall I would say I feel like good at the same time.

Rebecca Espinoza (06:19)
I I like what you said about having those moments within the pockets of things you get to enjoy, like really letting yourself lean into that because yeah, even I'm with my grief. It's like I can either be sad all the time or I can be sad sometimes when the moment is there, but also be happy because there are so many other things in life that are bringing joy. And I think I

recently heard someone, guest on almost 30 talk, this shows a neuroscience talking about how not everyone can do this, but they're the, the skill of being able to hold contrasting emotions and experience at the same time. It's like, it's a, it's, it's a very human thing and yeah, not everyone can do it, but

Shay (07:08)
It is. No, I think that's 100 % a skill set. It's kind of like the conversations we've had, which I think bridges perfectly into this episode of like being able to hold two truths at once. Same thing with like being able to hold multiple emotions and experiencing all of them and giving them their spaces, as most people do not navigate their emotions that way. But we have walked that walk of getting to know each of them very intimately.

Rebecca Espinoza (07:15)
Bye.

We absolutely have. And I think it does segue perfectly in because relationship stuff, it's been, it's relationships that has been on the radar, I think for you a lot this year. And I think for me, for me too, but it just like it in different ways, definitely in different ways. So we're going to get into it because we always talked about how relationships are some of our biggest teachers. So

Shay (07:56)
Yeah, just in different ways, but yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:06)
We want to talk a little bit about navigating relationships with conflicting beliefs. And I think sometimes that can be a little rare, especially when you feel like you live in a bubble with like, I feel like our friend group, we have most of the time similar beliefs, you know, and it's usually when we poke out of that bubble, you start to realize like, shit, there are people who think very differently. Obviously if you watch the news, you follow like the political journey right now.

Shay (08:33)
Yeah, like of course people think differently.

Rebecca Espinoza (08:35)
You're gonna know, yeah, that there are many contrasting beliefs out there in the world, but how does that affect us, know, how does that affect people more on a personal level? So, you know, what kinds of belief differences do you feel like you see most commonly affecting relationships and do relationships absolutely have to end because of these conflicting beliefs?

Shay (08:57)
personally think no, they don't necessarily have to end, but I think it really, really depends on the level of awareness and work that each of the individual people have done on their beliefs and to be able to hold two truths at once. Because I think if I look at society in our world outside of our bubble, I don't know very many people who can do that. And I have even friends who have worked on themselves and like evolves and whatnot and still

Rebecca Espinoza (08:59)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (09:27)
like are some of my favorite human beings and have openly admitted like I cannot do what you do. Like being able to hold multiple beliefs or have certain conversations the way you do on certain topics because I am too emotionally charged with it. And I think that's what it comes down to is like the emotions behind it because our beliefs and our thoughts shape our identity to some degree. So if someone is challenging that identity, of course it's going to feel like your world is crumbling a little bit.

Rebecca Espinoza (09:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm hmm. Yeah, it does. And my gosh, I mean, the world, your world crumbling, it's like, why does that happen? You know, because we so identify with these beliefs, these values that were ingrained in us maybe at a very young age, but then some that we kind of learned on our own, like, for example, us when we started kind of veering on our own individualistic paths from like family beliefs and all these things, like it's so easy to become identified like with.

what you hold as a belief. But that's when like your identity isn't all of that. Or is it? I don't know. That's that's a whole other. That's like a whole other conversation. People will say like part of your identity is made up of your like your beliefs because well, I guess, you know, this could get existential. Like, who are you? Who am I like truly to the essence of that? Like, that's a whole other conversation, I think.

Shay (10:32)
I know. I feel like...

Yeah.

You

Yeah. And I mean, if we, yeah, identity could be its own thing because then we could even bridge in things like human design where like some of us are meant to have fluid identities

Rebecca Espinoza (10:52)
yeah, that can be a rabbit hole, but we're gonna kind of stay on the topic

feel like a lot of the common, feel like politics, God slash religion, maybe the conversation on God, sex, the conversation on sex. And I feel like those are usually money. Those are some of the things that

Shay (11:14)
Money, kids. I think those are the core topics that everyone says will make or break a relationship. Especially, yeah, I would say more. I think it could maybe affect friendships, but not as much like all certain topics. think like money, politics, religion,

Rebecca Espinoza (11:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, I think it can differ within friendships, family. You see a lot of that's, you know, in family, like religion and politics is like a big one that kind of creates division within family. And of course, in romantic relationships and with friendships, I don't know. I don't know. I feel like they all, they can all differ. They can all affect these types of relationships and sometimes to

Shay (11:44)
That's true.

Definitely.

Rebecca Espinoza (12:06)
Yeah, so I mean, have you had certain relationships that these topics have fully impacted?

Shay (12:20)
religion has definitely impacted my relationships in the past. I was not of the same religion and it was basically like a hard no. Like it couldn't, there would never ever be a future between us. And I remember when I found out about this and for reference, it's Judaism. And I know and understand that the Jewish culture

Rebecca Espinoza (12:33)
Yeah...

Hmm.

Shay (12:46)
And depending how certain people practice Judaism, it can impact personal relationships because they do hold a belief, not all of them, but I would say for a vast majority who practice like Orthodox Judaism, hold the belief that if the woman is not born Jewish, then their children would not be Jewish even if she converted. So that was something that was very heavily present in my life for like,

year and some change and I remember not finding out about this until I was already like pretty invested in the relationship emotionally and whatnot and it was very very difficult because he struggled with the entire identity of being Jewish but not agreeing with his religion on this aspect and it was difficult for me because I was like well with the right person I would you know

convert and do all of that. And because I think if it's the right person and it's not something that goes against it and I'm open minded to it, it's kind of like, why not? Like that's where I stood. But it was like, even if I had done something like that, it would never be accepted in like his religion. Yeah. So it was like, okay, well like that brought up a lot of different things and obviously impacted the relationship and there was no future. And it was very conflicting for both of us.

Rebecca Espinoza (13:46)
convert.

It wouldn't be good enough.

Shay (14:13)
And ultimately it did end up not working out. And so it's sort of like, okay, cool. I think what I really took away from that particular relationship is bringing things up a lot sooner because the more invested that you get, especially in like a romantic relationship on certain topics like this, for some people it can make or break the relationship. And I think it just depends on the individual.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:17)
Mm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shay (14:38)
Each of you have to be very honest with what's a non-negotiable and what is something that you could be fluid with.

Rebecca Espinoza (14:44)
Yeah, the gosh, I can't you were so ready to convert. It was nobody wants this. That was Shay's life, everyone. If you haven't seen Nobody Wants This, it's a great it's a great rom com TV show Netflix that really depicts the development of healthy relationship and adult relationships that as we should be depicting in the media.

Shay (14:48)
I was. Now watching the show, I'm like, that was me!

Rebecca Espinoza (15:08)
But that was your life. You're literally looking how to convert. you know, I think that's, yeah, let's get into that. know, like when there's love involved in a relationship and then these kinds of differing perspectives and beliefs get in the way that just like makes you wonder, is love enough? And that's like a really pragmatic, I think, like pragmatic, adult and healthy.

thing to look at is like love enough, you know, and I remember, like I think those are really important and I like as a romantic, I'm like, yeah, love is enough, like I'm...

Shay (15:43)
yeah. Yeah.

Like no, it's not the Ferg. I mean, it's it's absolutely not.

Rebecca Espinoza (15:51)
Like, yes it is, I want it to be, but it's not. And I've definitely have gone through my own personal journey with like even in my long-term relationship that I had, we broke up because actually the differing values that we had towards the end was like his inability to have a work-life balance. And to me, that was super important. I didn't want to be with a partner, especially if I was gonna marry this guy. Like we were talking about marriage.

I didn't want to be with someone who didn't come to bed because he was up until like 4 a.m. working and then going to another job at the next the next day and not having the ability to know when to stop. And that's a big one, too. Some people don't some people don't have a work life balance. That's a huge no for me because I want to live a life with my person, like really live a life. And I think a perspective from that would be had. And I know his perspective was

Shay (16:46)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (16:49)
Well, he wanted to work as much as he could now so he could retire early, have a bunch of money saved up, be able to buy a house for like to raise a family and all these things. But like, when does it ever really stop? Right. Especially if you're so ingrained in that perspective of like, just go, go, go work, work, work. And that's a that's a lifestyle, like perspective. That's a big thing. And I remember.

Shay (17:08)
Yeah, for sure.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:13)
at the end of our relationship, like realizing like, wow, I love this man. And I was like head over heels with him. And we really built like a life for four years together. I'm like, that's not enough anymore. Love is not enough because this big piece is there. And obviously romantic relationships that really matters. Friendships that matters. You know, we both had a friendship breakup last year. it last year? Yeah, last year.

Shay (17:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Feels like it's been longer.

Rebecca Espinoza (17:42)
Yeah, we both had a friend. I know it was last year we had a friendship breakup and part of that was because of differing again, just like values in relationships and how we navigate relationships where it's like, I loved this person. She was my best friend at one point. That wasn't enough anymore because we didn't, we disagreed on how to have a friendship and how to communicate and things like that, which are big, big pieces obviously to make a relationship work.

Shay (18:13)
yeah, 100%, especially in a distant, like one that's distant.

Rebecca Espinoza (18:18)
What about politics? Did you ever have a connection with someone, whether it's like romantic or friendship, when they came to differing political views?

Shay (18:29)
Yeah, I have it definitely. I would, to be honest, it's present in my current relationship and it's also been very present with one of my closest friends from when I was younger. And I would say throughout all my different friend groups, like for the most part, all skew. Actually, I couldn't even say that. I couldn't even say that like, we all skew more liberal. We all skew more conservative because

Rebecca Espinoza (18:35)
Yeah.

It's hard to identify with that too because it's one label.

Shay (18:59)
Yeah, it's like it's that's not true. I would say if I look at certain groups of friends or people in my life, they would choose the liberal title, but that is not. Yeah, but that's not necessarily how they entirely identify. And then I definitely have friends who fully like, no, I'm conservative. And I do navigate that in my current relationship where.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:10)
more progressive.

Shay (19:27)
I'm somewhere more in the middle and have and like cannot choose sides because I'm like, I feel very passionate about certain things on certain policies on both sides. Unfortunately, we live in a society where they make you choose. So it's kind of like you're always boxed in. And I think something that like we sometimes navigate is like he's chosen more of a side, even though I don't necessarily know if that's entirely.

Rebecca Espinoza (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Shay (19:57)
true because when we have conversations, it's like we can have conversations on both sides and we do find that middle ground and we do find those areas where actually we think exactly the same thing. It's just expressing differently. One person's choosing a side and other person's refusing to choose a side and in many, many ways like not choosing a side nowadays is the rebellion. And so it's sort of like

Rebecca Espinoza (20:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Shay (20:26)
It's taken me a long time to get here too because there's a lot of things that I don't agree with, but then there's a lot of things that I do agree with and it feels very conflicting internally and to have conversations with people around it can be sometimes very heavy and difficult because I don't agree with everything. And I think when you disagree with something, it immediately causes tension and to be able to diffuse that tension and have healthy discourse and...

be able to hold the other person's truth, it requires a lot of practice and patience. Yeah, practice and patience and being able to navigate in a way where you're actually finding the sameness in something that you're looking at. I think more often than not, especially with politics, there's more sameness than there is differences. It's just expressing differently because

Rebecca Espinoza (21:01)
Patience.

Mm-hmm.

Shay (21:24)
We are growing up and we are in a political climate, especially nowadays where everything has to be the extreme. And that's just not life. That's like not life at all. we have to really look at the nuances. There's such a gray area on so many of the topics that come to political campaigns, things that are happening in society and stuff like that. And it is so rare, I think, to be able to find an individual who can have those conversations without it becoming heavy.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:30)
Yeah, it's not black or white.

Shay (21:51)
or a lot of tension. And that's something that I would say in my current relationship, there are things that we definitely hardcore agree on. And there's things where I'm like, I feel like we're definitely going to have to just agree to disagree here. But we have learned to have those conversations and honor each other's truths while seeing each other's perspectives and knowing that ultimately we do desire the same outcome.

Rebecca Espinoza (21:53)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Shay (22:20)
it just expresses very differently and like to each their own. And I'm like, I'm not gonna entirely judge you based off of that one single thing, but I wouldn't say that doesn't come without challenges in needing to navigate that. But I think we've been able to because we communicate on it and then we stay open-minded and we continue to communicate on things and we find more.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:33)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (22:44)
where it overlaps than where it doesn't. And I think that's an important part if you do have different beliefs, especially on like heavier topics.

Rebecca Espinoza (22:51)
I would love to gather a group of people, like a couple, like a group of couples and talk to everyone and interview them individually about, do you have, or was one Democratic, is one conservative, how do you like, I just, think it would be so fascinating to see that because it does take special skills to do that. And I think it's also knowing like,

what are you willing to compromise on to, you know, not fight the fight and know that you don't have to be right. I don't, I personally haven't had, I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think. I haven't had any relationships where it's been like a stark difference around, within politics about like what we believe. I think more than some friendships have started to like,

Shay (23:29)
Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (23:50)
people have started to become like Trump supporters. I'm like, my God, I don't know. I'm like, what do I do here? And you and I have talked, you know, you and I have talked about this. We're like, okay, with like Robert Kennedy and just the whole food, like the FDA and just like, you know, the approach that's being taken to kind of combat that and everything like that. Like we're like, that's amazing. But does it have to be through like that avenue?

Shay (24:16)
especially with this election has been fascinating to me because I don't like either candidate if I'm being entirely entirely on how

Rebecca Espinoza (24:22)
Yeah, you're kind of just like you're choosing the better from the

but what do you feel like some beliefs are easier to compromise on others? And are there any signs that a belief is deeply held and a non negotiable or like knowing what your non negotiable beliefs are? Like, how do how does someone even like know that?

Shay (27:30)
I feel like that's so dependent on the individual human being because personally, and I think this is just because of the work that I've done on myself, is like there are very few beliefs when it comes to politics, religion, things on money and sex and all of that kind of stuff that I like hold as a capital T truth. I just know like what I value in terms of like, this is how I want the energy behind it to be expressed and felt.

Rebecca Espinoza (27:48)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (27:58)
But when it comes to like the definitive belief, feel like I'm a little more open minded and malleable than I used to be in the past in the sense that like, I'm willing to hear this other person out. And even if it's not necessarily a belief that in my brain makes sense at the moment, if it feels resonant in my system and energy and I feel safe with it, like I'll explore that option and take that journey. And I think in my experience, at least when it comes to beliefs and topics like this, it's sort of like,

You can tell when someone really identifies with a belief because you feel that energy behind it. It's kind of, it can sometimes be sharp. In my experience, when I've heard certain people speak on certain topics and whatnot, I'm like, ooh, there's like a charge behind that. And you can tell like that person is going to hold a strong belief in that area because of the emotional charge that they have behind it.

Rebecca Espinoza (28:53)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (28:54)
And if that's the case, then they highly, highly identify with it. And that may make or break the relationship depending on how they can have a conversation around that. I don't know if that's been your experience.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:03)
Yeah, yeah, mean I feel like Non-negotiable beliefs I'm trying to think like I feel like at the end of the day like I Do not want to be in relation with someone any kind of shape or like any kind of expression that their belief is kind of creating harm

in the lives of other people. Like that's, that's like a full non-negotiable. I will not have like a malleable perspective on that. Like if your belief is like, and maybe to them, they believe it's not creating harm, but like I think, and again, because of like how maybe you grew up and what you were exposed to, you may believe that.

Shay (29:30)
Yeah, agreed.

Rebecca Espinoza (29:49)
it's not creating harm. And there are still, for example, like certain words that are used in society that, you know, people believe it's okay to use these words that actually creates harm and division among certain populations in our country that like, I will not stand for like, I'm sorry, but like, that's not I'm not okay with that. And yeah, I think that's like my my it's more of like a under like, it's not a specific belief. It's like an

concept of beliefs. Yeah, it's a concept of beliefs.

Shay (30:16)
It's an energy behind it. It's truly an energy behind the words that they're saying, because your belief is just your thoughts. And it's like the emotional charge behind it, that's where I think it can become problematic.

Rebecca Espinoza (30:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think beliefs also like that are very rigid around like, for example, this is is a big one, right? Like women. And this is very like, you know, if for more, I guess, the more traditional but like women and men are meant to have certain roles, right? There's gender roles. And if you believe like, no, women should specifically stick to only doing this and men should only stick to doing this. Like, I understand.

that there again are certain differences that make us different, that allow, yeah, that allow for men and women to fall into certain roles. But I would appreciate some fluid expression still around that, like an understanding that like we don't have to stick, stay in a box. And I think there is still some like very traditional beliefs that I don't entirely, I'm not entirely opposed

Shay (31:03)
Biologically, we are very different, yes.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:29)
But at the same time, appreciate flexibility around these kinds of concepts and conversations. So again, it is like, it is the energy piece around it and the willingness for people to kind of have the conversation. So yeah, that's like a big one.

Shay (31:43)
conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I fully, yeah, I feel that way too, which is why I'm like, I've navigated that in real life a lot this last year.

Rebecca Espinoza (31:58)
Yeah, I know you have.

Shay (32:00)
And because I think in many ways when it comes to these topics, like our words are literally a weapon and it's like, are you going to pull a fucking trigger the way that you speak about certain things in this world? And sort of like, where do you actually stand and do you see how that could be damaging? And it's like, yeah, it's like, okay, we don't want to hurt people.

Rebecca Espinoza (32:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

And it's like, mm-hmm.

Because look at like what beliefs are doing with war. There's war happening because like children are literally dying. Like innocent people are being killed because of differing beliefs and power structures. And I'm just like, there's already that happening on a grand scale. Can we try to mediate that on a smaller scale within our communities so we're not adding more fuel to the fire kind of thing? Because yeah, like you said,

beliefs and your words are weapons and man, like this election has definitely amplified that experience and that perspective here in the States. And you know, when it comes to beliefs, you know, I used to be a people pleaser and I think, you know, that's something that you navigated as well. what's a piece of advice you would give to someone who has natural people pleasing tendencies?

Shay (33:05)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Espinoza (33:18)
And so they can remain true to their values when they find themselves in a relationship with someone who has opposing views, even like on a small scale. Like I've definitely bended on like certain things when I was younger and less aware and less connected to what I knew for myself because I had people pleasing tendencies and I just wanted to be accepted and I just wanted to be loved.

Shay (33:44)
I think as a people pleaser, it's the parts of that, the part of you that feels uncomfortable speaking up or pushing back or saying where you stand. It's like that discomfort that arises in your body to have any sort of voice or opinion or thought process on anything inside of a conversation is often where the work and the magic happens. So it's like, I think

Rebecca Espinoza (34:10)
Yeah.

Shay (34:12)
for anyone out there who's just like, ooh, like I've wanted to speak up, but it feels really uncomfortable. Or I've wanted to speak up, but I'm afraid how the other person's gonna show up. Like that's your opportunity to stand in your truth and maybe make a really big impact on some of these topics that we've been touching upon. Because the more that you silence yourself for just being the appeaser and the people pleaser and keeping the peace, you're actually not doing any good for moving society forward at all.

Rebecca Espinoza (34:39)
No.

Shay (34:42)
And I think when we think of the political climate currently, I think everyone to some degree agrees that there's a lot of areas that need some work. And a lot of that is because there has not been healthy discourse. There has not been any way for anybody to share their perspective without feeling like they're going to be canceled or shunned or looked down upon.

And I think a lot of it is obviously how you represent yourself and carry yourself and the energy that you carry when you speak on topics as to why, like there is that tension happening in our society. However, if you are someone who like listening to this and you want to make that change and you're like, I just don't know how it's like come to as grounded of a place as possible and use your voice with the most empathy that you can on certain topics to be like, this is what I want to bring to the table. And.

open up a dialogue in the most neutral way that we possibly can. And when you do that, like it moves mountains because like you're doing this work and allowing society and people to realize like, we can have differing beliefs and ultimately still want the same thing and be able to have these conversations like, okay, where, where do we overlap on this? Because I can almost guarantee in any of these conversations with all of these topics, there is an overlap.

Rebecca Espinoza (35:59)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (36:10)
you just have a different thought process behind it. And I think when we can start doing that in our interpersonal relationships and the people closest to us, that's really gonna create like domino effect out in the bigger, bigger world.

Rebecca Espinoza (36:13)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly. being a people pleaser and having being a people pleaser as being a recovering people pleaser, I know this.

Speaking up for yourself when you disagree with something or like feeling like something inside of you was offended and being able to speak up that truth is terrifying. It is so scary. Because again, there is that deep rooted wound of like, won't be loved or accepted if I go against this person who I want for them to love and accept me. So I think I would say also like

Shay (36:48)
yeah, it's so uncomfortable.

Rebecca Espinoza (37:07)
Do it in small steps. You don't have to right away, like, be speaking up on a very public level to express your belief about whatever is happening in the world or because there's a lot happening in the world. And maybe even just like in a micro, you know, setting in a relationship, if something comes up that you feel like you don't agree on, you can simply just say, also, I don't agree. And you don't even have to get into

why you don't agree yet. If that is still, cause I remember for a while I had a hard time like even just like being able to get into a conversation about why I don't agree because I was so nervous and scared about again being rejected. But then I would, I would get really activated too, which we can talk about later. Like then they, you know, give a retort and then I get really passionate and activated. And then I just, can't eloquently and from a place of grounded like state express how I'm feeling.

So I think a good place to start even is just being able to say, I don't agree with that, but I actually don't have the words to fully express why I don't agree. But, and that's it. And setting a boundary. I think boundaries are so important when having these really difficult conversations. It's like, if we're gonna get into it, let's acknowledge some boundaries. Like, let's not get into an argument. Maybe we have that. Like that's a boundary. In the moment, it feels like it starts getting into an argument. Let's walk away because...

Shay (38:33)
Yeah, I feel like that's how most people approach it.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:36)
I don't think so. I don't think a lot of people approve.

Shay (38:39)
No, no, no, I'm saying most people approach it with like, all right, let's get into it. Like, I'm going to have an argument with you right now. That's what I meant. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (38:42)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Because again, that your internal world, like we talked about, is probably feeling like it's starting to crumble because someone is challenging it. So you want to fucking fight with fire. Yeah. Which fair. Totally fair. But again, what look what happens on a larger scale when we do that war happens and

Shay (38:54)
which is, yeah, fair, human.

Rebecca Espinoza (39:03)
worlds, literally worlds, countries and communities crumble, lives crumble. So that's something that I think could be really important is just like going about it in like small doses in that way. And then eventually when you feel comfortable enough to express your differences and other ways, like shifting in how you do it, like maybe this time you're having it with people, these conversations you usually wouldn't have it with, maybe you're having it in larger communities. And like on social media, that can be like a really sticky place, especially like

I don't know. Remember when obviously COVID happened and like Black Lives Matter happened? There was this whole thing on social media where it was like, if you're not speaking up, you are the problem. You are part of the problem. Like you need to speak up. That doesn't just because you're not speaking up doesn't mean you don't have the self-awareness. And then you're being pressured into speaking up probably before you're even ready. And why do we want

Shay (39:48)
yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:00)
Why do we want to create a community, a society, in a world where we're pressuring people to speak up before they're even ready? Like what good, same thing, we're coming at it from a fear. It's fear based. You're making someone do this out of fear because they feel they won't be accepted into society because they're not speaking up. They're going to be shunned. And that's a very primal response where you're like, my God, I have to do something. I have to acclimate and assimilate and conform because I need to be accepted in.

Shay (40:09)
It's so unintegrated. Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:28)
bigger society. And that was like a big thing. We all our friend group talked about that where it's like, just because we're not speaking up on social media doesn't mean we're not speaking and having these conversations in other ways like within our within family within our in your communities or close knit communities, because that's where real change happens. Like you're not gonna fucking storm the Capitol and like, shit, that doesn't really make big change. It's like have these conversations in your

Shay (40:34)
pressure to speak up.

where it matters more.

Rebecca Espinoza (40:59)
and more like where you know it's gonna make an impact, like direct, you know, and like whatever your stories, whatever you post on your fucking Instagram expires in 24 hours and people forget about it anyways.

Shay (41:13)
Yeah, and it's like, you don't actually know how authentic a person is online. Like there's people who put up an entire persona on their social media platform and then you could meet them in person. You're like, this person freaking sucks. So it's, yeah, it's and, it could be the opposite where you're like, like I thought I knew this person, but meeting them in person now I'm like, there's so much, like there's so much more than what their social persona is because

Rebecca Espinoza (41:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, that's happened to me, where I've met people like that.

Mm-hmm.

Shay (41:43)
That's what social media is. It's media. you're not going to, I think there are people who definitely display as authentic of a life as possible. And I know like if that's a value of yours, I know it is like for us, like you're going to get that. But even what you see online of either of us, I think there's so much more happening offline that you would, you still only know a sliver of me, even if that part is authentic. And it's like,

Rebecca Espinoza (41:47)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (42:08)
Yeah, the age of social media and the internet, like we've talked about this, it's beautiful thing and at the same time you don't really know so you cannot judge anything based off of the social media profile.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:20)
Yeah, and I think also social media is kind of like, quote unquote, a safe place to say whatever you want to say, because you can have a little bit of control over it. You can turn off the comments. You can like, you know, block certain people from seeing what you what you're posting, where it's like, it's that whole thing again, about like hiding behind a screen and doing

Shay (42:26)
Mm.

Rebecca Espinoza (42:44)
having the difficult conversations there when it's in person where there's really making an impact. But again, that's just that's like what you also said. It can also be used for really great things. And some of those conversations can be shared far and wide and go viral and reach people that wouldn't have ever heard those topics. So it's a love hate relationship with it. But getting back to a little bit about relationships, you know,

Shay (43:00)
Mm-hmm.

Literally always.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:14)
What do you think are some more effective strategies for couples or people, really just people, to communicate about beliefs without causing tension, anger, or resentment? Like we said, not going, starting the fight.

Shay (43:19)
Just people, yeah.

I think you have to go into it dropping your emotions. And that means you have to do some work on where you have a charge, on where you feel defensive, on where you don't feel free on this topic, really. Because I think like there's a freedom in being able to navigate these conversations when you do drop your emotions. But when we attach to our emotions, we're attaching to a story, we're attaching to an identity.

Rebecca Espinoza (43:34)
Poof.

Shay (43:58)
And if we attach too deeply, there's no room to have like an actual healthy discourse around whatever the topic is. You're allowed to feel however you want to feel, but you have to drop that before you go into the conversation. So it's like, do the things that you need to do to let your anger out, to let your defense out, to let your own tension out on how this other person might respond to what you want to bring to the table. And once you've kind of dropped the emotions, but feel

Rebecca Espinoza (44:14)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (44:27)
integrated in your truth and like asking yourself like what is the outcome I want to have on this conversation? Is it to understand the other person's belief? Is it for the other person to have insight on your belief or perspective? Is it you know like what's what's the outcome you desire? Because if you go in it kind of just like I just want to talk about this. That's possible but more often than not you have some sort of

outcome you're desiring if you're wanting to bring it to the table and I would say for most people, at least in my personal experience, it's usually to be understood and to understand. I think knowing that it's sort of okay, bringing it up in a way of like, I heard XYZ maybe and this is like how I'm perceiving it but I'd like to understand.

Rebecca Espinoza (44:55)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Shay (45:18)
like your perspective because I feel like there's a disconnect and it's creating disconnect. I think that's always kind of how I've approached it is like how much can I drop those like heavier emotions and then come into this like I'm seeking to be understood and understand but first I want to understand you because when you offer it to the other person to be understood more off that's going to bring their defenses down and

Rebecca Espinoza (45:45)
Mm-hmm.

Shay (45:46)
be able to open the topic where it's like you have the floor and I'm going to actively listen and I'm gonna pause before I speak and take in what you said and then I will speak from that place of like I've dropped my tensions. And then I feel like that's when conversations can really be propelled forward.

Rebecca Espinoza (45:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that piece I said about the desire to be understood and to understand I think is really big because if this is an important person in your life, why wouldn't you want to understand them and why wouldn't you want them to understand you, especially in romantic relationships or even in friendships? I've navigated this piece I think a little bit more. I think there's, yeah, knowing what...

Knowing when you're feeling activated before you actually blow up I think is really important to this like I mean I kind of mentioned this earlier like knowing when you need to walk away like I've had to do that before and more like family dynamics actually like when I've I've had to walk away I've literally had to say like I can't continue this conversation because I know I'm gonna kind of erupt whether that's in tears or that's like feeling really passionate because I'm I'm someone and I think you can relate to this I can get pretty passionate, you know

Like there's that fire inside of me that can get started and sparked, especially if I feel like there's some injustice and certain perspectives that are being shared, that it definitely sparks something in me that can, that I, like it'll initiate like a bigger, more eruptive like conversation. I've had to, I've worked through that a lot. And like, honestly, like Shay, like I know you mentioned with your partner, like,

I had an experience too with him personally where I was like, damn, and I told you later, was like, I think that was one of the first times I've ever got into, it was healthy discourse and we talked about it later. I was like, I'm actually really like, like this was actually pretty expansive because I was able to, we were both able to have like a healthy discourse and like some things that we differed about. And I don't think it's very common to have, you know, people who are a little bit more progressive or whatever, quote unquote democratic and quote unquote.

Shay (47:42)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:00)
conservative to be in the same environment and to be having you don't see that as often. So it's actually a really great opportunity to learn and also for like growth to know like what's worth pushing and what's worth backing up like dropping it like what's what's worth it truly. And yeah, I think for me a big thing has been learning how to walk away.

Shay (48:04)
prayer.

Just, yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:25)
and coming back later. If that conversation truly is important, you too can agree to disagree in that moment and also then to agree on when you can come back to the conversation and also understanding that like this isn't about changing anyone's perspective. If you're trying to change someone's perspective, it's not going to go anywhere. I think it's going to do more harm than good. That's like a big one that I've learned as well because someone that I've had

Shay (48:50)
Yeah.

Rebecca Espinoza (48:54)
this experience more with as actually my dad, because he was Christian. We had a big healing journey around all of this, but like we exchanged perspectives that differed a lot. And sometimes we would find that common ground. Like you said, sometimes there is just like, you're trying to get to the same place, but you're getting to it very differently. And along the journey, you're seeing where you can find some like similarities, some meeting points, but you're not going to change each other's perspective.

And same thing with my brother. Lifestyle is a big one about how we live our lives. And yeah, it's like never about changing the person's perspective because when you try to do that, I think more than anything, it's the right or wrong. Like who's right? Who's wrong? That won't get you anywhere.

Shay (49:39)
Exactly.

Rebecca Espinoza (49:44)
Okay. I mean, I think this was a pretty honest conversation. and I think it's pretty relatable. I think there actually are a lot of people who kind of experience this moment in life. And, if you haven't yet, maybe there will be a time, I can guarantee there will be a moment in life where you will encounter maybe an,

Shay (50:04)
I couldn't even imagine someone not encountering that at this point in time, given where we are as a society.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:08)
Ha

I know, there's definitely a moment where that will happen if it hasn't happened yet. But is there anything else that's on your heart that you want to share about this topic?

Shay (50:26)
No, not really. I feel like we definitely touched upon it. Maybe just be patient. Be patient with your process. Be patient with another person's process. Be patient with our world because our world, what we're seeing is the human experience, like navigating this in real time and not doing it well, unfortunately. But I think it always, always, always starts with us.

Rebecca Espinoza (50:28)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Compassion, like patience with compassion I think is like a big one and honestly what I've learned about compassion is also the willingness to be curious about other people's stories. I think you'll find a lot about, you'll learn a lot about why people have the beliefs that they have if you sit down and actually get curious about like their story, about where they come from and clearly you can't do that with everyone, like I can't sit down and do that with like Donald Trump, but

Shay (51:19)
No, I would love to do that though. I bet, yeah. And I bet with like a lot of political figures that maybe you really don't resonate with, if you did, I remember a quote from one of my mentors. She's like, there's not one single human being on this planet that if you didn't walk their shoes and understand their story that you wouldn't love and accept them exactly as where they are right now. And I truly believe that. And I remind myself that all the time when I'm like, ooh, this person does not sit well in my system.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:22)
I'd be so curious. I mean, there's a movie. There's a movie that came out about him, actually.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Exactly.

Shay (51:49)
I'm like, you know what? There's a reason why they're like this. And I'm going to have compassion for that. And that's, again, patience.

Rebecca Espinoza (51:57)
Yeah, know, someone who has the desire to fucking control and, you know, like have this ability, have the need to control their people, like what happened to your inner child? Like what happened? Like, let's say you probably weren't loved enough and I get it now, like poor little inner child. Yeah. But yeah, if you're able to do that with the people personally in your life, I think that can shift a lot that happened with both of us, I think with our families and

Shay (52:12)
Yeah, exactly. Bring the human back. Yeah, bring the human back into it.

Rebecca Espinoza (52:25)
Yeah, it's just like small steps like that that actually can make momentous impact. thank you again for joining us for another week and another episode. Let us know how it resonated with you. Yeah, shoot us a DM. can actually leave us a send us a text through Spotify. If you want to start a conversation about this, we're always so curious and open to hear what people say. And even if our perspectives may differ.

We're here to have the conversation. So thank you and we'll see you next week.